SEQ CHAPTER \h \r 1SCOTT: GOOD MORNING AND WELCOME TO ETHICAL PERSPECTIVES ON THE NEWS.  MY NAME IS SCOTT SAMUELSON AND I’M A PROFESSOR OF PHILOSOPHY AT KIRKWOOD COMMUNITY COLLEGE IN IOWA CITY.  TODAY OUR QUESTION IS, ARE COLLEGES AND UNIVERSITIES DOING THEIR JOB.  STUDENTS PAY WHAT SEEM LIKE EVER INCREASING SUMS AND AMASS DEBT IN MANY CASES TO ATTEND COLLEGE BUT WHAT SHOULD THEY EXPECT TO GET FOR THEIR MONEY?   THE ABILITY TO DO A JOB, THE SKILLS NECESSARY TO COMPETE IN A GLOBAL MARKETPLACE, A MIND FURNISHED WITH THE BEST OF WHAT HAS BEEN THOUGHT AND SAID, THE HISTORICAL AND CRITICAL THINKING NECESSARY TO BE A GOOD CITIZEN, ALL OR NONE OF THE ABOVE.  ACCORDING TO ANTHONY CRONEMAN, A PROFESSOR OF LAW AT YALE AND A RECENT EDITORIAL AND NOW A BOOK, EDUCATIONS END, EDUCATION IS FAILING TO PROVIDE STUDENTS WITH A SIGNIFICANT REFLECTION ON THE MEANING OF LIFE.  INSTEAD IT HAS OVER EMPHASIZED THE VALUE OF RESEARCH AND GYPPED UNDERGRADUATES ON THEIR EDUCATION.  WHAT IS THE CONTRACT BETWEEN COLLEGES AND THE PUBLIC?  BETWEEN PROFESSORS AND STUDENTS?  PROFESSORS AND THEIR INSTITUTIONS AND WHO’S KEEPING UP THEIR END OF THE BARGAIN?  TODAY WE HAVE 3 PANELISTS TO DISCUSS THESE ISSUES WITH US.  NEXT TO ME ART BETTIS, ASSOCIATE PROFESSOR OF GEO SCIENCE AT THE UNIVERSITY OF IOWA, THANKS FOR BEING ON.  MY COLLEGE, BOB SESSIONS, A PROFESSOR OF PHILOSOPHY AT KIRKWOOD COMMUNITY COLLEGE, THANKS FOR BEING ON BOB.  AND BILL HUMBERT OF THE HUMBERT GROUP WHO RUNS THE WEBSITE RECRUITERGUY AT MSN.COM, DO I HAVE THAT RIGHT? 

 

BILL: RECRUITERGUY.COM.

 

SCOTT: RECRUITERGUY.COM, SORRY.  THANKS FOR BEING ON BILL.  BILL, MAYBE LET’S START WITH YOU.  WHEN SOMEONE EARNS A DIPLOMA, LET’S SAY FROM THE UNIVERSITY OF IOWA, WHAT SHOULD WE EXPECT THEY HAVE?

 

BILL: I BELIEVE THAT WHEN A STUDENT GRADUATES FROM ANY UNIVERSITY OR COLLEGE, THEY NEED TO BE ABLE TO SOLVE PROBLEMS, THEY NEED TO BE CRITICAL THINKERS, THEY NEED TO UNDERSTAND THE TEAM NATURE OF BUSINESS TODAY.  THEY ALSO NEED TO UNDERSTAND THAT THEIR COMPETITION IS COMING FROM ALL OVER, NOT JUST IOWA CITY AND NOT JUST IOWA, NOT JUST THE UNITED STATES.  PEOPLE I RECRUIT TODAY, VERY FEW OF THEM ARE SMITH AND JONES.  THEY CAN BE NAMES AS SMALL AS NG AND AS LARGE AS 14 OR 15 LETTERS.  STUDENTS THAT GRADUATE TODAY REALLY NEED TO UNDERSTAND THAT THEIR COMPETITION IS COMING FROM EVERYWHERE IN THE WORLD. 

 

SCOTT:  BOB LET’S ASK THIS SIMILAR QUESTION.  WHEN A STUDENT COMES TO COLLEGE, WHAT SHOULD THEY BE EXPECTING FROM THEIR PROFESSORS?

 

BOB: THEY SHOULD BE EXPECTING THAT THEIR PROFESSORS MEET THEM HALFWAY PERHAPS WHICH IS THE WRONG WAY ACCORDING TO TRADITIONAL STANDARDS.  BY THAT I MEAN THAT WE HAVE A LOT OF THINGS THAT WE SHOULD EXPECT FROM STUDENTS AS WELL AND THERE’S A PROBLEM IN THAT DIRECTION.   THEY SHOULD EXPECT THAT THEIR PROFESSORS BE KNOWLEDGEABLE IN THE SUBJECT MATTER, THAT THEY BE DEDICATED TO TEACHING, THAT THEY BE EXCELLENT TEACHERS, THAT THEY CARE ABOUT STUDENTS AND TREAT THEM AS PERSONS.

 

SCOTT: OK AND LET’S GET ART IN ON THIS TOO.  MY OTHER QUESTION IS WHAT IS THE ROLE OF A PROFESSOR IN A WAY AND I’M PARTICULARLY THINKING HERE OF TO WHAT EXTENT IS THE ROLE OF A PROFESSOR AT THE UNIVERSITY OF IOWA RESEARCH, TO WHAT EXTENT IS IT TEACHING AND HOW IS THAT BALANCE STRUCK?

 

ART: I THINK WE HAVE BOTH ROLES REALLY.  IT’S A RESEARCH UNIVERSITY SO A LOT OF WHAT WE DO FOR THE UNIVERSITY, WHY WE’RE THERE IS BECAUSE OF THE RESEARCH WE DO AND THE GRANT MONIES WE BRING AND THAT SORT OF THING BUT OUR PRIMARY GOAL IS TEACHING.  WE’RE A UNIVERSITY.  THAT’S WHAT A UNIVERSITY IS ABOUT SO WE HAVE TO SORT OF STRIKE A BALANCE BETWEEN WHAT OUR BOSS, OUR ADMINISTRATION WANTS FROM US AS FAR AS GRANTSMANSHIP AND RESEARCH AND THE TEACHING THAT WE OWE TO THE STUDENTS AND I THINK YOU CAN DO BOTH BUT YOU HAVE TO BE AWARE OF THE FACT THAT THERE ARE CONFLICTS SOMETIMES BETWEEN THE TWO.

 

SCOTT: RIGHT.  OK, YOU CAN DO BOTH.  DO YOU THINK THAT WE ARE DOING BOTH?  ARE WE DOING A GOOD ENOUGH JOB OF TEACHING UNDERGRADUATES? 

 

THAT’S A LOADED QUESTION.  I THINK IT CAN BE DONE.  I THINK THAT ACTUALLY RESEARCH CAN BE AN ADVANTAGE.  IT CAN HELP WITH TEACHING, YOU CAN ENGAGE STUDENTS IN IT.  FOR INSTANCE IS IN A DISCIPLINE THAT INVOLVES A LOT OF RESEARCH OR THEY WANT TO BE A RESEARCHER THERE’S NOT BETTER TO REALIZE IF THAT’S WHAT YOU WANT TO DO AND TO LEARN HOW TO DO IT THAN TO BE INVOLVED WITH SOMEONE WHO IS DOING A REAL RESEARCH PROJECT RATHER THAN A MADE UP PROJECT THAT’S KIND OF LIKE RESEARCH.  SO IN THAT REGARD, YES.  AND ALSO RESEARCH ALLOWS US TO BE ON THE FOREFRONT SO WE’RE ABLE TO TRANSFER STUDENTS LIKE BILL WAS SAYING, TO GIVE THEM THE BEST, MOST UP TO DATE AND THE MOST UP TO DATE TECHNIQUES AND WAYS OF THINKING AND WAYS OF INVESTIGATING THINGS SO I THINK BOTH CAN HAPPEN.

 

BOB: AT A COMMUNITY COLLEGE WHERE I TEACH OUR PRIMARY MISSION IS TO TEACH, THAT’S WHAT WE GET PAID FOR BUT I AGREE WITH ART, YOU CAN’T BE A GOOD TEACHER UNLESS YOU’RE DOING RESEARCH.  NOT NECESSARILY PRIMARY RESEARCH, OUT IN THE FIELD AND SO ON BUT RESEARCH TO KEEP UP IN YOUR FIELD ABOUT EDUCATION, ABOUT THE CONTENT OF YOUR SUBJECT MATTER AND SO ON.

 

SCOTT: RIGHT BUT HERE’S THE PROBLEM THAT SOME PEOPLE HAVE POINTED OUT IS THAT SOME PEOPLE FEEL THAT YES, RESEARCH CAN CERTAINLY PLAY A ROLE AND SHOULD PLAY SOME ROLE IN AN EDUCATION BUT THE FEAR IS THAT THERE’S AN UNWRITTEN CONTRACT THAT’S STRUCK BETWEEN TEACHER AND STUDENT, BETWEEN PROFESSOR AND STUDENT, THE UNWRITTEN CONTRACT BEING SOMETHING LIKE, THE PROFESSOR SAYS SOMETHING LIKE I’LL KIND OF PASS YOU BY WITH A B, C, A MAYBE ASSUMING YOU DO A VERY MINIMAL AMOUNT OF WORK AND DON’T BOTHER ME WHILE I GO OFF AND DO MY RESEARCH AND WE’LL KIND OF SLIDE YOU THROUGH AND I GET TO DO KIND OF WHAT I WANT AND WHAT BRINGS IN THE MONEY ANYWAY AND THEN THE FEAR IS THEN OK, WE’RE LETTING EDUCATION SLIP, THAT WE’RE ALLOWING RESEARCH TO, IS THAT A REALITY OR IS THAT JUST A KIND OF MADE UP FEAR?    ART WHAT DO YOU THINK?

 

ART: YES AND NO.  I THINK IN SOME CASES, YEAH, THAT CAN HAPPEN.  I THINK REALLY WHAT IT IS, IT’S UP TO THE INDIVIDUAL FACULTY MEMBER AS TO SORT OF WHERE THEY WANT TO BE ON THAT SPECTRUM.  THERE’S A LOT OF PRESSURE AT A RESEARCH UNIVERSITY FROM THE ADMINISTRATION TO DO RESEARCH AND TO ** FOR GRANTSMANSHIP..  THERE’S NOT THAT MUCH PRESSURE FROM THE ADMINISTRATION TO BE A GOOD TEACHER AND SO I THINK IT’S UP TO THE INDIVIDUAL FACULTY PERSON TO DECIDE WHERE THEY WANT TO BE ON THAT SPECTRUM.  IF THEY ARE DEVOTED TO PROVIDING A GOOD EDUCATION TO STUDENTS THEY DO THAT ALONG WITH THE OTHER THINGS.  BUT THERE’S ALSO THE POSSIBILITY TO TRY TO CUT BACK ON EDUCATION OF UNDERGRADUATES AND SPEND MORE OF YOUR TIME DOING THE OTHER BECAUSE I THINK THE PENALTY FOR CUTTING BACK ON EDUCATION IS MUCH LESS THAN THE PENALTY FOR CUTTING BACK ON THE.

 

SCOTT: YEAH OR AT LEAST IT’S NOT FELT IMMEDIATELY.  THE MONEY IS SOMETHING THAT’S MORE APPEALING.

 

BUT I THINK MOST PEOPLE AND MAYBE I’M NAIVE BUT I THINK MOST FACULTY DO BELIEVE THAT THEY HAVE AN OBLIGATION TO PROVIDE A GOOD EDUCATION TO UNDERGRADUATES.  I THINK THAT’S THE CASE FOR THE MOST PART.

 

IN ONE OF OUR STUDIES WE READ THIS BOOK CALLED DECLINING BY DEGREES WHICH MAKES THE CLAIM THAT BOB IS MAKING AND THEY POINT TO THINGS LIKE LARGE LECTURE SECTIONS JUST OCCASIONAL WORK THAT PEOPLE DO IN THE MID TERM AND FINAL, MANY SECTIONS TAUGHT BY GRADUATE STUDENTS, NOT BY A FULL PROFESSORS THAT FULL PROFESSORS TRY TO TEACH AS LITTLE AS POSSIBLE SO THEY CAN DO THEIR RESEARCH AND PUBLICATION AND SO ON SO THOSE ARE THE KIND OF THINGS THAT PEOPLE ARE POINTING TO AND CERTAINLY ANOTHER ASPECT, MAYBE THIS IS IN SOME WAYS EVEN MORE TELLING, IS HOW DIFFICULT IT IS TO FIND PROFESSORS WHEN YOU WANT TO HAVE A CONSULTATION WITH THEM.  MAYBE A HALF HOUR A WEEK FOR MANY PEOPLE SO I THINK IT’S PRETTY CLEAR THAT PEOPLE HAVE TO CHOOSE THEIR PRIORITIES AND IT’S VERY DIFFICULT TO SERVE BOTH MASTERS.

 

I THINK THAT’S A REALITY TOO.  I KNOW OF MANY INSTANCES EXACTLY WHAT YOU SAID THERE AND I TEACH A REALLY LARGE ENROLLMENT CLASS THAT HAS LOTS AND LOTS OF TA’S.  I’VE TALKED WITH BOB ABOUT THIS BEFORE, THERE’S REALLY VERY VERY LITTLE ACCOUNTING FOR NOT DOING A REALLY GOOD JOB AT TEACHING.  THERE’S A PENALTY FOR NOT DOING AN ADEQUATE JOB.  ADEQUATE IS OK WHEN IT COMES TO TEACHING, ADEQUATE IS NOT OK WHEN IT COMES TO RESEARCH.  THAT’S SORT OF THE MESSAGE THAT YOU GET. 

 

BILL:  CAN I STEP IN HERE?  I HEAR YOU GUYS AND YOU’RE ALL PROFESSORS AND I’VE BEEN AWAY FROM COLLEGE EXCEPT FOR RECRUITING AND THAT BUT YOU KNOW AT SOME POINT YOU’VE GOT, NOT YOU PERSONALLY BUT AS THE UNIVERSITIES AND COLLEGES CHARGE MORE AND MORE AND MORE MONEY FOR TUITION ROOM AND BOARD, I’VE GOT TO BELIEVE THAT THE KIDS, THE STUDENTS EXPECTATIONS AND WHAT THE PRESSER ARE GOING TO OFFER THEM HAS TO RISE ALSO.  NOT JUST THE STUDENT BUT THEIR PARENTS, IN MANY CASES THEY’RE THE ONES WHO ARE PAYING FOR IT AND YOU KNOW WHAT?  SOCIETY TOO BECAUSE SOCIETY ULTIMATELY IS GOING TO PAY, ONE WAY OR ANOTHER.  I DON’T KNOW THE ANSWER BECAUSE I’M NOT IN IT BUT.

 

YOU’RE SAYING ADEQUATE IS NOT ENOUGH.

 

BILL: ADEQUATE IS NOT ENOUGH.  YOU KNOW AT A PRIVATE COLLEGE THEY’RE CHARGING 30,000 A YEAR FOR TUITION ROOM AND BOARD AND MORE.  I DON’T KNOW WHAT KIRKWOOD AND UNIVERSITY OF IOWA ARE CHARGING ANYMORE BUT MY DAUGHTER JUST GRADUATED WITH A DOCTORATE IN PHYSICAL THERAPY PROGRAM AT IOWA.  IT’S A WONDERFUL PROGRAM BUT IT WASN’T CHEAP.  SHE WAS A RESIDENT STUDENT SO YOU GET SOMEBODY FROM ILLINOIS OR SOME OTHER STATE AND THEY’RE PAYING NON RESIDENT FEES, THAT’S WAY UP THERE SO I THINK THAT THERE IS, I DON’T THINK THERE’S ANYPLACE FOR ADEQUATE IN TEACHERS. 

 

SCOTT: WHAT’S YOU SENSE?  DO YOU FEEL LIKE JUST FROM YOUR EXPERIENCE AS A RECRUITER, AS A PARENT, ARE COLLEGES DOING THEIR JOB?  ARE THEY,. OR ARE THEY JUST SORT OF SLOUGHING BY? 

 

BILL: OBVIOUSLY YOU GUYS HAVE BOTH SAID, THERE’S GOOD TEACHERS AND THERE’S BAD TEACHERS AND WHEN I WAS IN COLLEGE, I HAD BOTH.  I HAD GOOD TEACHERS AND I HAD POOR TEACHERS.  I THINK THERE HAS TO BE A BETTER WAY OF MEASURING AND YOU KNOW WHAT?  THIS IS GOING TO BE REALLY UNPOPULAR PROBABLY RIGHT THROUGH HERE BUT I QUESTION AS TO WHETHER TENURE IS A GOOD THING.  BECAUSE IF THERE ARE PEOPLE THAT ARE JUST ADEQUATE PROFESSORS AND THEY’RE TENURED, HOW ARE YOU GOING TO GET RID OF THEM?  THE REST OF US IN THE REAL WORLD, YOU KNOW WE’RE MEASURED VERY SPECIFICALLY ON OUR TASKS AND HOW WE DO AND IF YOU DON’T DO A GOOD ENOUGH JOB, YOU PROBABLY WILL NOT BE DOING IT VERY LONG.

 

SCOTT: BUT ONE FEAR WOULD BE EVEN TENURE ASIDE, THAT THE WAY OF JUDGING ON HOW SOMEONE IS DOING THEIR JOB IS JUST ON HOW MUCH MONEY ARE THEY BRINGING IN TO THE UNIVERSITY THROUGH RESEARCH, IN A WAY THEY SAY WE DON’T REALLY CARE WHAT YOU’RE DOING AS A TEACHER.

 

THAT’S A POINT THAT I WOULD MAKE.  I THINK THAT BY ELIMINATING TENURE I DON’T THINK YOU’LL MAKE AN IMPACT ON TEACHING. 

 

SCOTT: OR AT LEAST SOMEHOW WE NEED TO FOCUS ON TEACHING.

 

WE HAVE, OUR STUDENTS, OUR YOUNG PEOPLE HAVE TO COMPETE TODAY WITH STUDENTS IN INDIA, STUDENTS IN CHINA AND YOU KNOW WHAT?  THERE’S A WHOLE CONTINENT OF PEOPLE OUT THERE THAT NOBODY’S PAYING ANY ATTENTION TO AND IT’S CALLED AFRICA.  SOONER OR LATER THAT CONTINENT’S GOING TO WAKE UP TOO AND IT’S GOING TO DO THE SAME THING TO INDIA AND CHINA THAT CHINA AND INDIA DID TO MEXICO.  IT’S GOING TO HAPPEN.

 

HERE’S ANOTHER CONCERN.  ART AND I WERE TALKING ABOUT THIS A WHILE AGO.  I’M IN THE HUMANITIES AND VERY CONCERNED ABOUT LIBERAL EDUCATION.  I DON’T AT ALL PUT DOWN VOCATIONAL EDUCATION, I THINK PEOPLE SHOULD COME OUT OF COLLEGE, UNIVERSITY JOB READY BUT I THINK PART OF WHAT THEY ALSO SHOULD COME OUT WITH IS READY TO BE A CITIZEN AND READY TO BE A PARENT AND READY TO BE A LEADER AND SOMEBODY WHO CAN TAKE ON ADULT RESPONSIBILITY AND SO LIBERAL EDUCATION IS I THINK EQUALLY IMPORTANT TO VOCATIONAL EDUCATION AND I THINK THAT IN THE KIND OF COMPETITION THAT WE’RE TALKING ABOUT THAT TENDS TO SLIDE BECAUSE PLACES LIKE INDIA AND CHINA HAVE VERY SPECIALIZED EDUCATION SO THIS PERSON IS TRAINED IN MATHEMATICS AND SO OUR STUDENTS THAT COME OUT WITH A LIBERAL EDUCATION PLUS A VOCATIONAL EDUCATION HAVE A VERY HARD TIME COMPETING BECAUSE THIS PERSON FROM THE FIRST GRADE ON HAS ONLY HAD MATHEMATICS BUT HAVEN’T HAD THIS BROAD EDUCATION AND SO THE PRESSURES ARE BECAUSE OF GLOBALIZATION IN THIS CASE, REALLY GRADE ON SCHOOLS TO NOT TURN OUT THE KIND OF PEOPLE THAT I THINK AND PROBABLY YOU THINK THEY OUGHT TO BE TURNING OUT.

 

WELL I THINK I AGREE WITH ALMOST EVERYTHING YOU SAID.  ONE OF OUR ADVANTAGES IN THE UNITED STATES I BELIEVE, UP UNTIL NOW, WE’VE DONE A PRETTY GOOD JOB PRODUCING CRITICAL THINKERS.  THE LIBERAL ARTS EDUCATION, ONCE I WAS GIVING A TOUR OF ASSUMPTION AND I CALLED IT THE LIBERAL ARTS VACATION BUT THAT WAS A MISTAKE.  BUT, THE LIBERAL ARTS EDUCATION IS VERY VALUABLE AND I WAS TALKING TO AL ROE ABOUT IT LAST WEEK AND WE TALKED ABOUT THE MEANING OF LIFE AND AL MADE A POINT THAT WAS VERY IMPORTANT AND THAT WAS THE MEANING OF LIFE HAS TWO LETTERS IN IT, M E .  AND THE MEANING OF LIFE IS NOT ABOUT ME.  IT’S ABOUT EVERYTHING AND THAT’S THE VALUE OF THE LIBERAL ARTS EDUCATION I BELIEVE, IS TO HELP STUDENTS BECOME CRITICAL THINKERS, TO HELP THEM SEE OTHER THINGS IN ADDITION TO THE THINGS THAT ARE RIGHT OUT THERE AND TO BE ABLE TO DRAW RELATIONSHIPS.

 

SCOTT: AND DON’T SOME EVEN MAKE THE ARGUMENT OR IS THIS NAIVE TO SAY THAT IN A WAY TO COMPETE IN THE GLOBAL MARKET A LIBERAL EDUCATION CAN BE VERY USEFUL, THAT IT GIVES YOU KIND OF SKILLS SO THAT YOU HAVE THE FLEXIBILITY TO CHANGE JOBS THAT YOU HAVE THE ABILITY TO INTERACT WITH LOTS OF PEOPLE, YOU ARE A CRITICAL THINKER.  TO SOME DEGREE, I DON’T KNOW IF THIS COMPLETELY WORKS OUT BUT IT SEEMS LIKE THERE’S GOT TO BE SOME WAY IN WHICH THAT A LIBERAL EDUCATION IS PART OF WHAT IT MEANS TO LIVE IN A GLOBAL ENVIRONMENT.

 

WELL I THINK THAT THAT’S A GOOD POINT BECAUSE I THINK ESPECIALLY IN TODAYS WORLD WHERE FIELD BOUNDARIES ARE MOBILE AND SO WITH A BROADER PERSPECTIVE WITH LIBERAL ARTS EDUCATION I THINK YOU CAN MOVE AROUND AND YOU CAN MAYBE MAKE CONNECTIONS THAT YOU WOULDN’T IF YOU WERE JUST TRAINED THIS WAY.   SO I THINK THERE’S A REAL ADVANTAGE THERE AND I THINK THE IDEA OF CRITICAL THINKING IS ESPECIALLY IMPORTANT, NO MATTER WHAT YOU DO, JUST TO BE A PERSON WHO PICKS UP THE NEWSPAPER AND READS IT.  YOU HAVE TO HAVE THAT SKILL.  THAT’S A SKILL THAT EVERY CITIZEN IN EVERY COUNTRY SHOULD HAVE.  IT WOULD SAVE US ALL A LOT OF HARDSHIPS IN THE LONG RUN IF WE WERE ABLE TO DO THAT.

 

LET’S GO BACK TO ANOTHER KIND OF PRESSURE.  WE TALKED ABOUT GLOBALIZATION.  WE TALKED ABOUT RESEARCH AND THE PRESSURES THAT UNIVERSITIES HAVE TO GET GRANT MONEY AND HAVE PEOPLE BECOME NOBEL PRIZE WINNERS AND SO ON.  THERE’S ALSO THE PRESSURE THAT THE PUBLIC PUTS ON COLLEGES AND UNIVERSITIES TO HAVE THEIR STUDENTS COME OUT OF THOSE INSTITUTIONS WITH DEGREES THAT ARE GOING TO HELP THEM GET JOBS AND SO ON.  THERE’S A LOT OF VOCATIONALISM BEING PUSHED AND UNDERSTANDABLY.  IF YOU’RE A PARENT AND YOU’RE HELPING TO PAY FOR A 16,00 OR A 32,000 OR A 45,000 GRINNELL DOLLAR EDUCATION, YOU WANT TO GET BANG FOR YOUR BUCK AND INADVERTENTLY I THINK, THAT KIND OF PRESSURE IS UNDERMINING SOME OF THE THINGS THAT AT LEAST I CARE ABOUT AND YOU CARE ABOUT WITH LIBERAL EDUCATION SO I THINK THAT’S A THIRD FORCE THAT’S PART OF THIS MIX THAT’S UNDERMINING THE TRADITIONAL UNDERGRADUATE EDUCATION. 

 

SCOTT: SO SHOULD THE MEANING OF LIFE BE PART OF THE EDUCATION?  ART, WHAT DO YOU THINK?

 

ART: I THINK THERE’S DEFINITELY A NEED TO SOMEHOW INSTILL IN STUDENTS IF THEY DON’T ALREADY HAVE IT THE IDEA THAT THERE’S MORE OUT THERE THAN JUST YOUR JOB OR YOUR PROFESSION OR THIS OR THAT OR YOUR COUNTRY.  YES, I THINK THAT IT’S ESSENTIAL TO COME OUT AND I THINK THE OPPORTUNITY GOING TO COLLEGE IS GREAT FOR THAT BECAUSE YOU COME IN CONTACT WITH ALL THESE DIFFERENT PEOPLE AND POTENTIALLY ALL THESE DIFFERENT IDEAS, I MEAN THERE’S A SMORGASBORD OF POSSIBILITIES JUST LAID OUT THERE BEFORE YOU WHICH IS SOMETIMES A PROBLEM, ESPECIALLY IF YOU’RE TRYING TO BE FOCUSED BUT NONE THE LESS I THINK THERE’S PROBABLY THE ONE GOLDEN OPPORTUNITY IN MOST PEOPLES LIVES GIVEN THEM RIGHT THERE TO DO THAT AND IT’S VALUABLE, THE FACT THAT MOST STUDENTS CHANGE THEIR MAJORS, WHAT, 3 TIMES NOW OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT?  THAT’S A REFLECTION OF THAT.  I DID THAT.  I THINK I CHANGED 4.  IT’S GREAT BECAUSE I LEARNED ALL KINDS OF THINGS I NEVER WOULD HAVE LEARNED IF I WOULD HAVE DECIDED WHEN I WENT TO COLLEGE THAT I WAS GOING TO BE A GEOLOGIST.  I’M GLAD I ENDED UP THERE BUT THE FACT THAT I GOT A DEGREE IN ANTHROPOLOGY WAS WONDERFUL.  I LEARNED ALL SORTS OF THINGS.

 

SCOTT: SO LET’S COME BACK TO THIS IDEA.  WHEN SOMEONE GETS A DIPLOMA FROM THE UNIVERSITY OF IOWA, WHAT DO WE WANT THEM TO HAVE OR WHAT SHOULD THEY BE GETTING AND WHAT DOES IT MEAN TO SAY THEY SHOULD HAVE A LIBERAL EDUCATION, WHAT DOES IT MEAN TO SAY THEY SHOULD BE ABLE TO GO ON AND DO SOMETHING?  WHAT’S A LIBERAL EDUCATION MEAN I GUESS IS WHAT I’M SAYING?  HOW MUCH SCIENCE DOES IT INVOLVE, HOW MUCH, YOU KNOW SHOULD THEY BE READING LITERATURE, SHOULD THAT BE REQUIRED?  I DON’T KNOW I MEAN WE CAN’T ANSWER THIS QUESTION COMPLETELY BUT WHAT’S A KIND OF SKETCH OF WHAT’S NECESSARY?

 

LET ME JUMP IN AGAIN.  TODAY, TOO OFTEN PEOPLE, ESPECIALLY IN THE SCIENCES, ARE NOT EFFECTIVE COMMUNICATORS WHEN THEY GET OUT OF SCHOOL.  THEY HAVE TO BE ABLE TO WRITE, THEY HAVE TO BE ABLE TO COMMUNICATE EFFECTIVELY.  AND BY THAT I MEAN MORE THAN TEXTING AND MORE THAN EMAIL AND ACTUALLY I MEAN EVEN MORE THAN POWER POINT PRESENTATIONS.  THEY HAVE TO BE ABLE TO TALK ONE ON ONE WITH THE PEOPLE THEY’RE WITH.  THEY HAVE TO BE EFFECTIVE TALKING TO PEOPLE IN ANOTHER NATION.  I FIRMLY BELIEVE THAT WE’RE SHORTCHANGING OUR STUDENTS K THROUGH 12 K THROUGH 16 IN FOREIGN LANGUAGE.  THE LACK OF THAT IN THE UNITED STATES TO ME IS TERRIBLE.  SOMEHOW WE’VE GOT TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO DO THAT.  I TALKED TO A GUY FROM HAITI WHO’S GOT 3 LANGUAGES HE WAS TAUGHT IN SCHOOL.   IF THEY CAN DO IT IN HAITI THEN MAYBE SOMEWHERE IN THE UNITED STATES THEY CAN DO IT IN 2 LANGUAGES. 

 

SCOTT: SO ANOTHER LANGUAGE IS IMPORTANT FOR ONE.  ABILITY TO WRITE WELL AND READ WELL.

 

COMMUNICATE, TO THINK.

 

SCOTT: RIGHT.  HOW DO WE DO THAT THOUGH I GUESS IS WHAT I’M SAYING?

 

I THINK PART OF IT IS WHAT BILL BROUGHT UP.  IT DOESN’T JUST REST ON THE COLLEGE.  IT’S THE WHOLE EDUCATION SYSTEM THAT BRINGS YOU FORWARD TO THAT BECAUSE WHAT I’VE READ ANYWAY IS THAT AS FAR AS FOREIGN LANGUAGES, YOU’RE A LOT BETTER OFF TRYING TO LEARN THOSE WHEN YOU’RE YOUNG CAUSE BY THE TIME YOU COME TO COLLEGE UNLESS YOU’RE ONE OF THE FEW PEOPLE WHO HAS AN EASY TIME WITH LANGUAGES, THAT PART OF YOUR BRAIN ISN’T ABLE TO DO THAT AS WELL AND SO YOU KNOW THE SAME GOES FOR SOME BASIC THINGS THAT NEED TO BE DONE AT THE HIGH SCHOOL AND GRADE SCHOOL LEVEL.  HOW TO TEACH YOURSELF INSTEAD OF IT BEING A ONE WAY THING, TO LEARN EARLY ON THAT IT’S A TWO WAY THING.   LEARNING IS ALL ABOUT, IT’S A PROCESS THAT INVOLVES AND SOMEONE ELSE OR YOU AND SEVERAL OTHER PEOPLE AND IT’S NOT JUST SITTING THERE AND HAVING INFORMATION DUMPED ONTO YOU AND YOU WRITE IT DOWN AND YOU MEMORIZE THAT AND THEN YOU SPIT IT BACK OUT ON EXAM.  THERE’S A LOT MORE TO IT THAN THAT. 

 

I’D LIKE TO PIGGYBACK ON THAT BY GOING BACK TO SORT OF YOUR ORIGINAL IMAGE THAT THE PROFESSOR AND THE STUDENT HAD THIS KIND OF UNSPOKEN DEAL.  DEALS ARE BETWEEN 2 PEOPLE OR 2 PARTIES OK?  IT SEEMS TO ME THAT PROFESSORS HAVE THEIR SIDE OF IT WELL, I’M REALLY GETTING PAID TO RESEARCH AND PUBLISH AND SO ON BUT THEN THE GRADUATES HAVE THEIR SIDE OF IT AND THAT IS WELL, I WANT TO GET THROUGH HERE AND GET A DEGREE BUT I’D JUST AS SOON SPEND MY TIME HAVING A GOOD TIME AND PARTYING AND DRINKING SO ON AND SO IF YOU’LL PASS ME WITHOUT HAVING TO DO A LOT OF WORK AND SO WHAT ART IS TALKING ABOUT IS IT HAS TO BE A CULTURAL SHIFT TO THE PLACE WHERE THE WHOLE SOCIETY IS SUPPORTING STUDENTS IN GOING TO COLLEGE AND AVIDLY SEEKING A DEEP BROAD EDUCATION RATHER THAN SEEKING NARROW VOCATIONAL EDUCATION OR SEEKING JUST SLIDING BY BECAUSE SO MANY STUDENTS WE HAVE, THEY WANT A DEGREE BUT THEY DON’T WANT AN EDUCATION.  EDUCATION IS HARD WORK, IT HAS TO BE VARIED, IT HAS TO HAVE THESE RICH SUBJECT MATTERS AND MOST PEOPLE

 

AND IT HAS TO START AT HOME TO SOME DEGREE.

IT HAS TO START AT HOME WHEN THEY’RE ONE, NOT WHEN THEY’RE 18.

 

SCOTT: OK, IN THE UNITED STATES THERE’S SUCH A KIND OF WIDE VARIETY OF DIFFERENT INSTITUTIONS THAT PROVIDE HIGHER EDUCATION, LIBERAL ARTS COLLEGES, UNIVERSITIES, COMMUNITY COLLEGES.  WHICH ONES ARE DOING THE JOBS BEST WOULD YOU SAY OR HOW ARE COMMUNITY COLLEGES DOING, HOW ARE UNIVERSITIES DOING?  LET’S START WITH BILL, HOW DO YOU THINK THE VARIOUS KINDS OF INSTITUTIONS ARE DOING, HOW WOULD YOU RANK THEM?

 

BILL: THAT’S TOUGH BUT I THINK THAT A BIG CONCERN I HAVE ABOUT OUR COLLEGES AND UNIVERSITIES AND THIS IS ACTUALLY A HUGE CONCERN, IS MY FEELING IS THAT THE UNIVERSITY OR COLLEGE SHOULD BE A SAFE MENTORING PLACE, BACK TO THE PHILOSOPHY OF SITTING AT PLATOS KNEE, LISTENING OR ARISTOTLE.  IT SHOULD BE A PLACE THAT NURTURES STUDENTS.  I REALLY BELIEVE THAT.  I KNOW THAT THAT’S NOT ALWAYS GOING TO BE THE CASE.  ESPECIALLY IN LARGE SCHOOL.   I’M REALLY CONCERNED ABOUT HOW POLITICS ARE ENTERING TOO MUCH I FEEL INTO THE COLLEGES AND UNIVERSITIES AND HOW PEOPLE WHO HAVE INFLUENCE ON THE STUDENTS ARE USING THAT INFLUENCE ON THEM. 

 

SCOTT: YOU’RE TALKING ABOUT POLITICAL INDOCTRINATION.

 

AND I DON’T CARE IF YOU’RE LIBERAL OR CONSERVATIVE.  IT’S HAPPENING ON BOTH SIDES.  I DON’T THINK IT BELONGS THERE.  AS AN ASIDE, YOU HEAR ABOUT CHRISTIAN FUNDAMENTALISTS, YOU HEAR ABOUT MUSLIM FUNDAMENTALISTS, YOU HEAR ABOUT THE JEWISH FUNDAMENTALISTS.  ANYBODY EVER HEAR ABOUT THE ATHEIST FUNDAMENTALISTS?  THEY’VE GOT TO BE OUT THERE.  I THINK MADELINE MURRAY MIGHT HAVE BEEN ONE.  ALLOW THE STUDENTS AND NURTURE THE STUDENTS IN A SAFE ENVIRONMENT FOR THEM TO LEARN AND ENCOURAGE THEM.  THEY DO HAVE RESPONSIBILITY TO DO THAT LEARNING TOO, THEY HAVE TO STUDY.  I THINK THAT IF WE GET BACK TO KIND OF WHAT THE BASICS OF WHAT COLLEGES AND UNIVERSITIES USED TO BE I THINK WE’LL SEE A LOT MORE SUCCESS.  YOU KNOW WE NEED OUR OWN RENAISSANCE RIGHT NOW I THINK.

 

SCOTT: SO, BACK TO THE IDEA.  SO WOULD YOU SAY UNIVERSITIES ARE DOING THAT OR NOT?

 

THERE ARE TOO MANY OF EACH AND THERE’S SO MANY GOOD ONES AND BAD ONES OF EACH, I’M NOT GOING TO SAY A UNIVERSITY IS BAD BUT YOU KNOW THE SCALE IS TOO BIG TO MEASURE BUT YOU KNOW IN SPECIFIC AREAS, I THINK IN THE SCIENCES I THINK COLLEGES AND UNIVERSITIES ARE DOING A REALLY GOOD JOB.  LOOK AT THE RESULTS WE’RE GETTING.  I THINK THEY’RE DOING A REALLY GOOD JOB IN THE SCIENCES AND IN THE MATHS PROBABLY PRETTY GOOD. 

 

SCOTT: BOB, WHAT DO YOU THINK? 

 

BOB: WELL I THINK WHAT WE’VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT LAYS IT OUT.  I THINK RESEARCH UNIVERSITIES HAVE A MUCH MORE DIFFICULT TIME DOING AS GOOD A JOB AS LIBERAL ARTS COLLEGES.  LIBERAL ARTS COLLEGES, THE REWARD SYSTEM IS PRETTY MUCH FOR TEACHING AND NOT FOR PUBLICATION AND RESEARCH AND COMMUNITY COLLEGE THE EMPHASIS IS TOTALLY THERE.  COMMUNITY COLLEGES I THINK HAVE A HARDER TIME EVEN THOUGH WE TEACH HALF THE COLLEGE STUDENTS IN THE COUNTRY, PEOPLE DON’T REALIZE WHAT A JOB WE’RE DOING.  WE HAVE A HARDER TIME BECAUSE WE HAVE STUDENTS FROM ALL OVER THE SPECTRUM IN ABILITIES AND BACKGROUNDS AND SO ON.  WE TAKE STUDENTS FROM EVERY ASPECT OF THE CLASS WHERE AT THE UNIVERSITY YOU TAKE WHAT, THE TOP 40% NOW.  WE TAKE THE BOTTOM 60 AS WELL.  I THINK THERE ARE A LOT OF VARIABLES BUT THE WAY WE STARTED IS RIGHT.  LOOK AT THE REWARD SYSTEM AND YOU GET KIND OF A GENERAL ANSWER.  YOU HAVE TO LOOK AT PARTICULAR SCHOOLS OR PARTICULAR PARTS OF PARTICULAR SCHOOLS AS WELL. 

 

MY IMPRESSION IS AND I GET THIS IMPRESSION FROM LOOKING AT OUR STUDENTS COMING TO OUR GRADUATE PROGRAM THAT HAVE GONE THROUGH AN UNDER GRADUATE DEGREE AT EITHER A LARGE UNIVERSITY OR A SMALLER SCHOOL.  I THINK BILL IS RIGHT WHEN IT COMES TO THE SCIENCES AND MATH AND THINGS LIKE THAT.  THOSE THAT GO TO THE LARGE UNIVERSITIES ARE WELL PREPARED.  THEY TEND TO HAVE ALL THE PIECES.  THOSE THAT HAVE GONE TO LIBERAL ARTS COLLEGES SOMETIMES DO, SOMETIMES IT MIGHT BE A LITTLE ON THE WEAK SIDE BUT ONE THING THAT SET APART THE LIBERAL ARTS STUDENTS IS THEY TEND TO BE BETTER COMMUNICATORS AND THEY TEND TO HAVE BETTER WRITING SKILLS AND HAVE BETTER INTERPERSONAL ACTIVITIES WITH COLLEAGUES, NOT ON A PERSONAL BASIS BUT THEY COMMUNICATE BETTER AND SO.

 

SCOTT: THEN THEY CATCH UP IN THE OTHER STUFF?

 

OH YEAH.  I THINK AND IN SOME CASES THOSE COMING FROM THE LARGE UNIVERSITY CATCH UP TOO BUT I THINK IT’S BECAUSE THEY JUST HAVE GONE THROUGH SMALLER CLASSES WHERE THERE HAS BEEN A SMALLER STUDENT TEACHER RATIO, WHERE THEY’VE INTERACTED WITH PROFESSORS MORE WHERE THEY’VE INTERACTED WITH THEIR FELLOW STUDENTS MORE.  I THINK THOSE SKILLS ARE JUST DEVELOPED THAT WAY, THEY’RE NOT NECESSARILY SKILLS THAT ARE TAUGHT AS MUCH AS THEY’RE SKILLS THAT ARE ACQUIRED THROUGH PRACTICE AND MAYBE EVEN IN SOME SORT OF WAYS YOU DON’T EVEN KNOW YOU’RE ACQUIRING THEM.  I TAUGHT AT A UNIVERSITY IN NEW ZEALAND AND THE THING THAT SURPRISED ME WAS THE STUDENTS THERE WERE LIKE THOSE THAT COME OUT OF THE LIBERAL ARTS COLLEGES HERE ONLY THIS WAS A LARGE UNIVERSITY.

 

SCOTT: SO IT CAN BE DONE.

 

WELL THAT’S BECAUSE THEY’RE TAUGHT LIKE THAT FROM GRADE SCHOOL AND THROUGH HIGH SCHOOL.  THAT’S HOW THEY’RE.  THEY WERE WEAKER ON THE BASIC SCIENCES AND MATH AND THINGS LIKE THAT BUT THEY WERE BETTER AT LEARNING.

 

SCOTT: OK I’M GOING TO HAVE TO CUT YOU OFF THERE.  I’M AFRAID WE’RE RUNNING OUT OF TIME BUT I’D LIKE TO THANK ALL THE PANELISTS FOR BEING ON AND TO ME I THINK THERE’S NO ISSUE SO CENTRAL TO SOCIETY THAN EDUCATION IN A CERTAIN WAY AND IT’S A TASK REALLY THAT ALL CITIZENS PARTICIPATE AND NOT JUST STUDENTS AND TEACHERS OR EVEN PARENTS BUT EVERYONE HAS A STAKE IN SO WE HOPE THAT THE CONVERSATION THAT WE STARTED HERE TODAY IS ONE THAT’S CONTINUED AT HOME.   I LIKE THE IDEA OF THE RENAISSANCE HERE, LET’S SEE IF WE CAN GET THAT GOING.  WELL THANKS AGAIN.  SEE YOU NEXT TIME ON ETHICAL PERSPECTIVES ON THE NEWS.