MARCELLA: GOOD MORNING AND WELCOME TO ETHICAL PERSPECTIVES ON THE NEWS.  MY NAME IS MARCELLA DAVID AND I’M A PROFESSOR OF LAW AND INTERNATIONAL STUDIES AT THE UNIVERSITY OF IOWA WHERE I ALSO HOLD AN ADMINISTRATIVE POSITION AND ANY VIEWS I MIGHT EXPRESS TODAY ARE MINE ALONE.  TODAY’S STORY WAS SPARKED BY SOMETHING IN THE NEWSPAPER.  INSTEAD OF THIS TIME IT BEING NATIONAL NEWS IT WAS THE LITTLE HAWK PRESS, THE CITY HIGH OF IOWA CITYS NEWSPAPER WHICH A COUPLE OF WEEKS AGO HAD A SURVEY WITH RESULTS PRINTED IN THEIR NEWSPAPER AS A COVER STORY.  THE SURVEY TALKED ABOUT SOME ISSUES RELATED TO RACE AND OTHER ATTITUDES THAT THE STUDENT BODY HAD AND THEY HAD ABOUT 350 STUDENTS WH RESPONDED, 23% OF THE STUDENT POPULATION AND HERE’S SOME OF THE NUMBERS THAT CAME OUT.  MY VIEW TOWARD BLACK STUDENTS IS GENERALLY FAVORABLE 25%, NEUTRAL 62%, UNFAVORABLE 13%.  MY VIEW TOWARD WHITE STUDENTS IS GENERALLY FAVORABLE 41%, NEUTRAL 57%, UNFAVORABLE 2%.  MY VIEW TOWARDS HOMOSEXUAL, BISEXUAL, TRANSGENDER STUDENTS IS GENERALLY FAVORABLE 33%, NEUTRAL 39% AND UNFAVORABLE 28%.  LET ME REPEAT THOSE UNFAVORABLES SO MY VIEW TOWARDS BLACK STUDENTS GENERALLY IS UNFAVORABLE AT 13% MY VIEW TOWARDS WHITE STUDENTS GENERALLY IS 2% AND MY VIEW TOWARD HOMOSEXUAL, BISEXUAL TRANSGENDER STUDENTS IS GENERALLY UNFAVORABLE 28%.  NOW BOTH THE PRINCIPAL AND SCHOOL DISTRICT SUPERINTENDENT EXPRESSED DISAPPOINTMENT IN THE UNFAVORABLE ATTITUDES REFLECTED BY THE SURVEY RESULTS.  HERE’S WHAT THE STUDENT EDITOR SAID.  THE EDITORIAL BOARD OF THE LITTLE HAWK IS CERTAINLY NOT MADE UP OF EXPERTS IN THE FIELD OF RACISM.  WE DON’T HAVE ANY CLEAR CUT IDEAS ON HOW TO RID OUR STUDENT BODY OF PREJUDICE, HOWEVER, ONE THING WE ARE SURE ABOUT IS THAT IGNORING A PROBLEM IS NOT A GOOD WAY TO MAKE IT GO AWAY.  PRETENDING CITY HIGH IS HATE FREE FOR LONG ENOUGH WON’T MAKE IT TRUE SO THAT LEADS US TO TODAYS TOPIC WHICH IS DARE WE TALK ABOUT RACE?  HERE TO TALK ABOUT SOME OF THE ISSUES RELATED TO THIS ARE GREAT PANELISTS.  RIGHT NEXT TO ME IS SARA BAIRD, SHE’S FROM THE IOWA CITY HUMAN RIGHTS COMMISSION, WELCOME SARA.  NEXT TO HER IS WALTER MAY JR.  HE IS ASSISTANT TO THE BISHOP, SOUTHEASTERN IOWA SYNOD ELCA, WELCOME AND FINALLY KATHLEEN MOORE IS A PASTOR OF FAITH AND NEW CREATION UNITED METHODIST CHURCHES, WELCOME TO YOU AS WELL.  LET’S START THE CONVERSATION BECAUSE WE’VE ACTUALLY BEEN ASKED FOR SOME HELP BY THE EDITORS OF THE, WELL, I’LL THINK THEY WERE ASKING FOR HELP.  THEY’RE ASKING FOR HELP GENERALLY I THINK.  WHEN YOU HEAR ABOUT THIS STORY YOU HEAR ABOUT THE UNFAVORABLE ATTITUDES, LET’S START OFF BY SAYING WAS IT DISAPPOINTING OR SURPRISING TO YOU, WERE THE RESULTS KIND OF OUT OF WHACK WITH WHAT YOU WOULD HAVE EXPECTED?  I’LL JUST GO AROUND THE ROW HERE AND START WITH SARA. 

 

SARA: THEY WEREN’T SURPRISING TO ME, IN FACT THEY WERE ACTUALLY LOWER THAN I IMAGINED THEY WOULD BE.  I THINK IF WE WERE TO TAKE IT AGAIN NOW EVERYBODY’S PRETTY DEFENSIVE AND THE NUMBERS WOULD ACTUALLY BE HIGHER IN THE UNFAVORABLE.  I FEEL HORRIBLE THAT THE KIDS WEREN’T TOTALLY PREPARED FOR THIS, IT JUST KIND OF CAME OUT AND THE BIGGEST WORD ON THE PAGES HATE AND SO THEN THEY’RE INTERPRETING THIS AS HATE AND SO I FEEL HORRIBLE FOR SOME OF THE KIDS IN THAT SCHOOL THAT THEY HAD TO SEE IT SO PLAINLY LIKE THAT AND I THINK THAT THE NUMBERS ARE DISAPPOINTING IN THAT THE KIDS HAVE TO DEAL WITH IT AND NOW IT’S ENLIGHTENING AND IT’S SOMETHING THAT THEY’RE ASKING FOR HELP.  THEY’RE ASKING US, AS A COMMUNITY FOR HELP. 

 

WALTER: SURELY, WHAT WE WOULD LIKE TO SEE HIGHER NUMBERS BUT DISAPPOINTING IN NO WAY.  I THINK IF YOU LOOK AT THE GEOGRAPHY AND THE DEMOGRAPHICS OF THIS WHERE THE SURVEY WAS TAKEN, IT’S TO BE EXPECTED.  I THINK IT’S UNFORTUNATE AS SARA HAS POINTED OUT BUT I’M CERTAINLY NOT SURPRISED BY THE NUMBERS OR IN ANY WAY, I THINK THAT THEY REFLECT FOR THOSE STUDENTS WHO WERE HONEST ENOUGH TO GIVE THEIR HONEST OPINION.  IT REFLECTS WHERE THEY ARE AND WHAT THEY WERE THINKING.  YES, I AGREE.

 

KATHLEEN: I WAS NOT SURPRISED AT ALL EITHER.  I PERHAPS WAS SURPRISED THAT THAT MANY STUDENTS WERE HONEST ENOUGH TO RESPOND IN THAT WAY BUT WE’D LIKE TO THINK IT’S NOT SO BUT RACISM IN IOWA IS DEEP AND BROAD AND I’M GLAD THAT THESE STUDENT EDITORS TOOK THIS ON, THEY MAY NOT HAVE DONE IT IN THE MOST SOPHISTICATED WAY BUT IT STARTED THE DISCUSSION.

 

MARCELLA: WELL LET’S TALK ABOUT THIS IDEA OF RACISM IN IOWA.  I THINK IF YOU GO OUT AND YOU DO SOME OF THE NATIONAL SURVEYS AND YOU LOOK AT SOME OF THE INFORMATION THAT’S AVAILABLE FROM PU FOR EXAMPLE, YOU’RE RIGHT, THAT THE RACISM IS STILL DEEPLY ENTRENCHED IN OUR COUNTRY ATTITUDES ABOUT GAY MARRIAGE FOR EXAMPLE STILL DEEPLY ENTRENCHED IN OUR COUNTRY AND THERE’S A LOT OF DIVISION THERE.  WHAT IS IT ABOUT BEING IN IOWA THAT MAKES US THINK AND MAYBE EVEN IOWA CITY THAT MAKES US THINK THAT WE SHOULD BE DIFFERENT OR THAT WE ARE DIFFERENT.  I’LL START WITH YOU BECAUSE YOU STARTED US ON THIS TRACK KATHY.

 

KATHLEEN: I THINK IOWANS, OUR SELF CONCEPT IS THAT WE ARE WARM GENEROUS HOSPITABLE PEOPLE SO TO ACTUALLY GET DOWN AND TALK ABOUT RACISM IN A WAY THAT SAYS YES, WE ALL HAVE GROWN UP IN A RACIST SYSTEM, WE ALL HAVE IMBIBED THIS WITH OUR MOTHERS MILK.  IT’S A PART OF US AND THAT’S A HARD THING TO FACE.  WE DON’T QUITE KNOW WHERE TO GO WITH THAT AND IT DOESN’T FIT OUR SELF IMAGE AS BEING GOOD SOLID HEARTLAND PEOPLE AND IT’S JUST HARD TO KNOW WHAT TO DO WITH THAT INFORMATION.  WE AVOID THINGS LIKE WALTERS, WALTER YOU TEACH CLASSES ON HELPING PEOPLE TO IDENTIFY RACISM AND PREJUDICE. 

 

MARCELLA: WELL, SARA YOU WERE NODDING VIGOROUSLY ABOUT IOWA AND THE WAY THAT PEOPLE IN IOWA THINK ABOUT IOWA.  IS THERE ANYTHING THAT YOU NEEDED TO ADD TO WHAT KATHLEEN SAID?

 

SARA: WELL I AGREE WITH KATHLEEN DEFINITELY.  I THINK THAT IOWANS TRULY PRIDE THEMSELVES ON BEING WELCOMING AND WE WANT TO BELIEVE THAT WE WANT EVERYBODY TO FEEL AT HOME HERE AND NEIGHBORLY AND OUR COMMUNITIES ARE JUST THAT, VERY WARM AND RECEPTIVE TO NEWCOMERS.  I THINK THAT SOMETIMES WE ARE STILL FEARFUL OF WHAT’S DIFFERENT AND SO WHEN THE DEMOGRAPHICS OF OUR COMMUNITIES ARE CHANGING WHICH THEY ARE AND THEY’RE GOING TO KEEP CHANGING THROUGHOUT OUR LIFETIME, I THINK WE HAVE TO KEEP EDUCATING OURSELVES AND KEEP HAVING THE CONVERSATIONS WHERE WE’RE CONFRONTING ANY OF OUR PREJUDICES WHERE WE’VE INHERITED OVER YEARS AND YEARS THE WHOLE COUNTRY, IT’S JUST A SYSTEM THAT’S PERPETUATED RACISM.

 

MARCELLA: SO I’M JUST GOING TO PUSH YOU A LITTLE BIT BECAUSE I’M GOING TO GO OUT ON A LIMB AND GUESS THAT YOU’RE PROBABLY THE YOUNGEST PERSON SITTING UP HERE AND I THINK ONE OF THE REASONS WHY SO MANY OF THE PEOPLE I TALK TO ABOUT THE CITY HIGH PAPER WERE DISAPPOINTED IN PARTICULAR IS THAT THEY WANTED TO THINK THAT THE YOUNG WOULD HAVE A DIFFERENT PERSPECTIVE, THAT THERE’S GOING TO BE A VERY DIFFERENT WAY OF LOOKING AT THINGS BECAUSE YOUNGER PEOPLE ARE GOING TO BE SOMEHOW NOT AS SUSPECT TO HAVE THESE KINDS OF FEELINGS.  DO YOU HAVE ANY WORDS OF WISDOM TO SHARE ON THAT?

 

SARA: WELL I GREW UP HERE IN CEDAR RAPIDS ACTUALLY AND WAS IN HIGH SCHOOL IN THE LATE 80'S AND I WOULD SAY THAT THE NUMBERS TAKEN, IF THIS SURVEY HAD BEEN TAKEN IN MY HIGH SCHOOL CAREER IN CEDAR RAPIDS I THINK THE NUMBERS WOULD HAVE BEEN EVEN WORSE, MORE DISAPPOINTING IN THE UNFAVORABLE CATEGORY AND I THINK THAT IOWA CITY HAS BEEN KNOWN TO BE A LITTLE MORE ACCEPTING AND I HOPE THAT THE YOUTH ARE LEARNING AND HEARING MORE OF THESE CONVERSATIONS AND POPULAR CULTURE AND MEDIA HAVE DEFINITELY BECOME A LOT LESS WHITE IN REPRESENTATION OF THE COUNTRY, OF PEOPLE WHO WE LIVE WITH AND SO THEREFORE I DO BELIEVE THAT THE STUDENTS ARE MAKING PROGRESS, I THINK THE KIDS ARE MAKING PROGRESS.  EVERY YEAR, BUT WE’RE JUST CHIPPING AWAY AT IT AND MAYBE THERE NEEDS TO BE A BIGGER LARGER DISCUSSION AT A NATIONAL LEVEL DEFINITELY.

 

WALTER: I THINK THERE’S A COMBINATION OF THE QUESTIONS THAT YOU ASK IN TERMS OF WHY IOWANS ARE SURPRISED.  ONE OF COURSE IS THAT IN IOWA WE THINK WE ** AND WE’RE WELCOMING AND WE THINK WE ARE, WE ARE WELCOMING.  SECONDLY I THINK WHAT YOU SAID ABOUT YOUNG PEOPLE AND SURPRISING IS THAT WE THINK THAT YOUNG PEOPLE NOWADAYS ARE NOT EXPERIENCING WHAT SOME OF US WENT THROUGH IN THE 60'S OR FELT IN THE 60'S.  THE DIFFERENCE IS A COUPLE OF THINGS, ONE, I THINK THE WAY WE LOOK AT AND VIEW RACISM WOULD BE ONE.  MOST PEOPLE THINK OF RACISM AS YOU HAD STATED EARLIER IN THE CONVERSATION AS IT’S SOMETHING THAT’S DOWN SOUTH OR SOME VERY OVERT ACTION THAT HAPPENS.  RACISM IS VERY SUBTLE AND IT TAKES PLACE THROUGH THE WAY WE’RE SOCIALIZING, THE YOUNG PEOPLE I THINK NOWADAYS ARE NOT SOCIALIZED ANY DIFFERENT THAN THEIR PARENTS WERE AND SO WHEN YOU ARE GIVEN A FORM OR GIVEN A SURVEY TO WRITE DOWN, IF YOU’RE HONEST ENOUGH TO WRITE DOWN HOW YOU FEEL OR WHAT YOU’RE THINKING THOSE SYSTEMS THAT’S IN YOU, YOU’VE BEEN SOCIALIZING TOO COMES OUT ON THE PAPER AND THAT’S WHAT WE SEE AS A RESULT.

 

MARCELLA: OK. WELL, THAT’S THE FIRST PART OF THE QUESTION BUT THE STUDENTS ALSO ASKED FOR HELP AND ONE OF THE THINGS THAT WAS ALMOST AN INTERESTING AS THE SURVEY ITSELF IS THAT THE SURVEY RESULTS IN THE NEWSPAPER EDITION WERE POLLED BY THE PRINCIPLE BECAUSE THERE WERE SOME FIGHTS THAT WERE STARTED ABOUT THE NEWSPAPER STORY AND THE SURVEY AND ONE OF THE QUESTIONS THAT I’VE ALSO HEARD ABOUT THIS CONVERSATION THAT I HAD WITH FOLKS IS ARE WE ABLE TO EFFECTIVELY TALK ABOUT THESE ISSUES, ARE WE ABLE TO EFFECTIVELY LEARN AND AS THE STUDENTS SAY, ARE WE ABLE TO GIVE THEM THE TOOLS THAT THEY NEED TO GET PAST HATE SO I’M GOING TO START WITH YOU ALL BECAUSE YOU’VE ALREADY BEEN OUTED AS SOMEBODY WHO DOES THESE KINDS OF EDUCATION, WHAT ARE THE KINDS OF THINGS THAT ONE CAN DO IN ORDER TO HAVE AN OPEN CONVERSATION? 

 

WALTER: WELL IT’S VERY IMPORTANT THAT WE DO HAVE A CONVERSATION BUT IT’S ALSO IMPORTANT THAT THE CONVERSATION IS MONITORED OR THE CONVERSATION IS THERE’S A BROKER SO THAT WHEN WE COME UP WITH I DIFFER FROM YOU WE DON’T TAKE IT OUT WITH FISTFIGHTS OR OTHER KINDS OF THINGS, WE HAVE SOMEONE WHO’S IN THE MIDDLE WHO’S KIND OF A MODERATOR.  WE’VE DONE ANTI RACISM TRAINING AT A HIGH SCHOOL HERE IN CEDAR RAPIDS AND THE SOCIAL TEACHER WHO TEACHES SOCIAL STUDIES INVITED US TO COME OUT AND BE A PART OF THAT AND WHAT WE FOUND WAS THAT THE YOUNG PEOPLE WERE LOOKING FOR A PLATFORM, LOOKING FOR A WAY, LOOKING FOR A TABLE IN WHICH THEY COULD EXPRESS HOW THEY FEEL AND WHAT FEELINGS THEY HAVE AND WHAT DISCRIMINATIONS THAT THEY’RE GOING THROUGH AND THEN THE OTHER PEOPLE WHO FEEL THAT THE DISCRIMINATION IS COMING FROM THEM WANTED AN OPPORTUNITY TO TALK TO THOSE SAME STUDENTS.  BUT IT WAS A SAFE ENVIRONMENT WHERE NO ONE WAS ALLOWED TO, WE START WITH THREE DIFFERENT THINGS ONE, YOU RESPECT THE PERSON WHO’S TALKING, YOU ALLOW THE PERSON TO TALK AND YOU STRETCH YOURSELF SO THAT YOU’RE ABLE TO GO A LITTLE BIT BEYOND HOW YOU NORMALLY FEEL COMFORTABLE AND I THINK WHEN ANYONE IS GIVEN A PLATFORM LIKE THAT IT ALLOWS THEM TO SAY WHAT’S REALLY INSIDE AND THE ONLY WAY I THINK THAT YOU CAN DEAL WITH THIS SO THAT ANYTHING CONSTRUCTIVE CAN HAPPEN IS THAT YOU HAVE TO BE ABLE TO TALK ABOUT HOW YOU FEEL AND NOT WHAT YOU THINK SOMEBODY WANTS TO HEAR YOU SAY.

 

MARCELLA: KATHY YOU’RE NODDING ON THIS.  WHAT HAPPENS WHEN PEOPLE ARE SAYING WHAT THEY REALLY FEEL AND WHAT THEY REALLY FEEL UPSETS SOMEBODY IN THE ROOM.  HOW DO YOU BEGIN TO NEGOTIATE THAT?

 

KATHLEEN: LET’S ASK THE GUY WHO DOES IT.

 

MARCELLA: HAS THAT EVER HAPPENED?

 

WALTER: IT HAPPENS ALL THE TIME.  FOR ONE THING, YOU RELY ON THE GROUND RULES THAT YOU SET AT THE BEGINNING OF THE MEETING AND WHEN THAT HAPPENS WHAT YOU DO IS TO TRY TO FIND OUT WHERE THAT PERSON’S COMING FROM BECAUSE WHAT WE LIKE TO TALK ABOUT IS HOLDING A PERSONS IN ATTENTION LONG ENOUGH SO THAT I CAN HEAR WHAT YOU’RE SAYING AND YOU CAN HEAR WHAT I’M SAYING.  WHAT WE TRY TO GET TO THE POINT IS IF I DISAGREE WITH YOU AND I NEED TO BE ABLE TO TELL YOU EXACTLY WHAT YOU’RE SAYING AND IF YOU DISAGREE WITH ME YOU NEED TO BE ABLE TO SAY EXACTLY WHAT I’M SAYING AND THEN ONCE WE BOTH CAN SAY WHAT THE OTHER IS SAYING THEN THERE’S ROOM FOR TALK.  THERE’S ROOM FOR MOVEMENT.

 

MARCELLA: SO FIRST LISTEN.  AND UNDERSTAND AND THEN CRITIQUE?

 

WALTER: CRITIQUE AND GUIDE, CRITIQUE, GUIDE, LISTEN AGAIN, DISAGREE, OH YEAH, YOU HAVE TO AGREE TO DISAGREE.  YOU ALSO HAVE TO COME IN, I THINK YOU HAVE TO ALWAYS COME IN WITH A PERMANENCE, FOR EXAMPLE WHEN I TALKED ABOUT RACISM, WE START ANY DISCUSSION OR ANY TYPE OF TRAINING WE COME IN WITH A DEFINITION OF RACISM, WE SAY THIS IS WHAT WE LIKE YOU TO TRY OUT BECAUSE IN ORDER TO GET SOMEWHERE CONSTRUCTIVELY YOU NEED TO BE WORKING WITH FROM THE SAME KIND OF UNDERSTANDING OF WHAT RACISM IS ALL ABOUT AND IF WE GET PEOPLE THAT FAR YOU JUST SHAKE YOUR HEAD YEAH, AND SO THAT WHEN DISAGREEMENTS COME UP WE CAN REFER BACK TO WHAT WE’VE AGREED ON IS THAT DEFINITION. 

 

MARCELLA: AND WHAT’S YOUR DEFINITION OF RACISM?

WALTER: RACISM IS RACE PREJUDICE WHICH EVERY PERSON HAS, PERSONS OF COLOR, EVERYBODY HAS RACE PREJUDICE PLUS POWER.  THE POWER OF SYSTEMS AND INSTITUTIONS THAT ONLY THE DOMINATE CULTURE HAS THAT AND THAT EQUALS RACISM AND SO IF WE WORK FROM A DEFINITION LIKE THAT AND WE CAN GET PEOPLE TO, ONCE WE DISAGREE WE CAN SAY OK, LETS DISAGREE BUT LET’S TRY TO WORK WITHIN THAT FRAMEWORK.

 

MARCELLA: OK.  SO THAT’S A PRETTY STRUCTURED MODEL FOR TRYING TO TEACH PEOPLE AND GET PEOPLE TO ENGAGE ON THIS ISSUE.  ARE THERE OTHER UNFORMAL, LESS FORMAL MODELS THAT ANYONE ELSE HAS TO CONTRIBUTE AS TO HOW THEY GET PEOPLE TO ENGAGE?  IT COULD BE JUST THAT ONE ON ONE CONVERSATION WHEN YOU’RE IN AN OFFICE SETTING AND SOMEBODY SAYS SOMETHING AND YOU’RE ABLE TO RESPOND IN A WAY THAT’S A TEACHING MOMENT SO ARE THERE ANY OTHER HINTS OR STRATEGIES THAT YOU ALL WOULD LIKE TO SHARE?

 

KATHLEEN:  WELL I THINK BEING PREPARED TO RESPOND IS REALLY KEY THERE.  BECAUSE WHAT WE TEND TO DO IS WHAT SOME FOLKS HAVE CALLED BEING IOWA NICE SO SOMEBODY MAKES SOME STATEMENT AND YOU GO OOOH BUT WELL, LET’S NOT TAKE THAT ON RIGHT NOW.  I THINK WE HAVE TO BE READY TO TAKE ON THE RACISM.  YOU CAN DO IT IN A KIND WAY IN A WAY THAT’S OPEN TO WHERE THAT PERSON IS BUT TO SAY SOMETHING THAT INDICATES AS I HEAR THAT AS A NEGATIVE COMMENT.  I PROBABLY WOULD NOT LABEL IT AS RACIST BECAUSE THAT’S FRAUGHT WITH A LOT OF EMOTION.

 

SARA: AND LIKE YOU SAID DO IT IN A WAY THAT YOU’RE NOT ACCUSING THEM OF BEING RACIST OR BEING HATEFUL JUST SAY WHAT DID YOU MEAN BY THAT?  CAN YOU EXPLAIN TO ME WHAT YOUR STATEMENT MEANT BECAUSE I’M NOT GETTING IT.  JUST ASKING SOMEBODY TO EXAMINE IT AND BEING A LITTLE MORE AWARE OF WHAT THAT STATEMENT MIGHT MEAN OUT THERE ONCE THEY’VE LET IT ESCAPE THEIR LIPS. 

 

WALTER: YOUR DEFINITION OF ONE ON ONE IS JUST GREAT, THAT’S WHAT WE CALL IT. 

 

MARCELLA: AND IT’S REALLY HARD THOUGH BECAUSE SOMETIMES, I’M NOT FRO IOWA SO I CAN’T CALL IT IOWA POLITE, I’M FROM NEW YORK AND SOME PEOPLE WOULD THINK PEOPLE FROM NEW YORK ARE NOT POLITE AT ALL BUT IT’S HARD TO DISAGREE WITH PEOPLE.  YOU WANT TO AGREE, YOU WANT TO NOD YOUR HEAD AND SHOW THAT YOU’RE CONNECTING WITH SOMEBODY AND TO JUST PUT ON THE BRAKES AND SAY I DISAGREE, I THINK YOU SAID SOMETHING WRONG SEEMS LIKE A WRENCH IN A CONVERSATION THAT CAN BE A DIFFICULT THING TO GET PAST.  ARE THERE OTHER STRATEGIES THAT WE SHOULD JUST KIND OF PUT OUT ON THE TABLE, THIS IS JUST A LAUNDRY LIST, I’M NOT EXPECTING WE’RE GOING TO GIVE PEOPLE A WHOLE BUNCH OF DIFFERENT THINGS TO TRY WITHOUT FURTHER EXAMINATION.

 

WALTER: IN SCHOOL DIVERSITY CIRCLES WHERE YOU TALK, KIND OF WHAT YOU’RE SAYING WE ALSO HAVE.  YOU DO HAVE THOSE CONVERSATIONS AND IT’S GOOD THAT WE CAN AND WE ARE GOING TO DISAGREE BUT AT LEAST THOSE CONVERSATIONS HAPPEN SO THAT WOULD BE ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I WOULD SAY.

 

MARCELLA: SO IT COULD BE AROUND A PARTICULAR TOPIC OR SOME KIND OF NEWS EVENT THAT MIGHT COME UP AND YOU CAN TALK ABOUT JENA SIX OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT. 

 

KATHLEEN: ONE OF THE THINGS THAT REALLY BOTHERS ME IS THAT WE’VE KNOWN FOR A LONG TIME, OR SORT OF A LONG TIME ABOUT THINGS LIKE DIVERSITY WORKSHOPS AND RACISM TRAINING AND THINGS LIKE THAT, YOUR CHURCH HAS AN EFFORT TO DO THAT, MY CHURCH HAS AN EFFORT, YOUR CHURCH HAS AN EFFORT, WE WERE TALKING ABOUT THAT BEFORE THE PROGRAM BEGAN, THERE ARE LOTS OF METHODS OUT THERE BUT WE’RE NOT USING THEM TO THE EXTENT THAT WE NEED TO.  I’D LIKE TO SEE EVERY ONE OF THE IOWA SCHOOLS GET REALLY SERIOUS ABOUT APPROACHING RACISM. 

 

MARCELLA: SO WHAT ARE THE BARRIERS?  WHY IS THAT NOT HAPPENING?

 

KATHLEEN: WE TEND TO BE REACTIVE SO IF THERE’S A CRISIS, WE HAVE FISTFIGHTS IN THE HALLWAY, THEN WE’LL REACT.  BUT AS LONG AS THINGS ARE PRETTY COPASETIC, WE’LL FIGURE EVERYTHING’S GOING ALONG OK.  ON THE WHITE SIDE WE WON’T SAY DO WE HAVE SOME STUDENTS HERE THAT MAY NEED SOME DIVERSITY TRAINING.  DO WE NEED TO BE PRO ACTIVE IN APPROACHING THIS ISSUE? 

 

SARA: WELL AND LOOK AT OUR TEXTBOOKS TOO, OUR TEXTBOOKS HAVE GLOSSED OVER A LOT OF THINGS THAT AREN’T SO PRETTY IN AMERICAN HISTORY.  SLAVERY CAN ONLY TAKE ONE PAGE, THE MIDDLE PASSAGE, MAYBE TWO PARAGRAPHS ON THAT PAGE.  THE HOLOCAUST, WORLD WAR TWO WOULD BE 3 CHAPTERS COMPARED TO SLAVERY AND SLAVERY LASTED 300 YEARS OR MORE.  I THINK THAT THE UNITED STATES HAS WRITTEN THESE TEXTBOOKS IN A WAY SO THAT WE DON’T LOOK SO BAD YOU KNOW BUT WE’RE NOT GOING TO LEARN FROM OUR MISTAKES IF WE’RE NOT ADMITTING OUR MISTAKES AND THAT’S VERY IMPORTANT FOR OUR KIDS TO JUST FACE THE TRUTH YOU KNOW, THEY CAN HANDLE IT.

 

WALTER:   I SEE THREE THINGS.  ONE WOULD BE INTOLERANCE, I THINK THAT WE’RE IN MY OPINION, IN THE HIGHEST STATE OF THAT THAT WE’VE BEEN IN FOR A VERY LONG TIME.  SECOND WOULD BE SOCIALIZATION, HOW WE’RE SOCIALIZED FROM THE VERY BEGINNING AND THIRD WHICH IS A BIG ONE WHICH IS FEAR. 

 

MARCELLA: LET ME THROW ANOTHER COUPLE OF QUESTIONS OUT THERE AS TERMS OF POSSIBLE BARRIERS.  DO YOU THINK THERE’S A PARTICULAR BARRIER WITH REGARD TO, WE’VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT THIS IN TERMS OF RACISM BUT THERE WERE 3 QUESTIONS THAT WERE THERE AND ONE WAS ABOUT THE WAY STUDENTS FEEL ABOUT OTHER STUDENTS WHO WERE HOMOSEXUAL, TRANSGENDER, IS THAT, DOES THAT PROVIDE A DIFFERENT SET OF BARRIERS AND ARE THERE OTHER WAYS THAT WE NEED TO THINK ABOUT HAVING CONVERSATIONS AROUND SEXUAL IDENTITY AND GENDER IDENTITY?

 

I THINK THAT DISMANTLING OR JUST QUESTIONING POWER IS IMPORTANT AND WHITE PRIVILEGE OR ANY OF THE PRIVILEGES THAT IS PART OF THE SYSTEM IS WHERE IT IS GOING TO HAVE TO BEGIN.  SO WHENEVER YOU FEEL A PREJUDICE IS WHERE YOU’RE SUPPOSED TO IDENTIFY AND BE SELF AWARE THAT THERE IS A POWER IN PLAY, THAT YOU MIGHT BE COMING FROM POWER OR YOU MIGHT BE UNDER THAT OPPRESSION OR THAT DISCRIMINATION.

 

MARCELLA: SO THAT’S GOING BACK TO THE DEFINITION OF RACISM AS BEING RACIALLY AWARE AND ALSO HAVING POWER TO ACTUALLY INFLUENCE.  DO YOU HAVE AN AWARENESS OF THE DIFFERENCE AND ARE YOU USING YOUR POWER IN CERTAIN WAYS THAT ARE INAPPROPRIATE.

 

WALTER:   AND I THINK THAT SOME OF THE SAME THINGS THAT WE’VE TALKED ABOUT IN TERMS OF RACE WHICH I THINK RACISM IS THE FOUNDATION FOR A LOT OF THE OTHER ISMS THAT WE DEAL WITH, WHAT WORKS WITH THE SAME AS THE GENDER ISSUES AS WELL.  THE WAY WE’RE SOCIALIZED HAS A LOT TO DO WITH THAT, AND FEAR, ONCE AGAIN, FEAR IS JUST WE’RE VERY FEARED OF THAT WHICH IS DIFFERENT. 

 

KATHLEEN: AND I THINK THE NUMBERS WERE WORSE ON HOMOSEXUALITY QUESTIONS BUT ACTUALLY I THINK THE CHANGE THERE AMONG YOUNG PEOPLE IS COMING MUCH MORE QUICKLY.  I THINK PART OF THAT IS BECAUSE AS SOME OF THE HETEROSEXUAL PEOPLE GET TO KNOW SOME OF THEIR FRIENDS WHO ARE GAY AND LESBIAN OR TRANSGENDER, HERE’S SOMEBODY WHO SEEMS MORE LIKE ME AND IT MAY SOUND RIDICULOUS BUT TO LOOK AT YOUR SKIN COLOR AND SAY THAT MAKES US MORE DIFFERENT THAN I AM FROM THIS PERSON WHOSE SEXUAL ORIENTATION IS DIFFERENT, INSTEAD OF BEING ABLE TO SEE EVERYBODY AS A HUMAN BEING AS A CHILD OF GOD, IT SEEMS LIKE MAYBE THAT’S PART OF THE REASON THAT THERE’S A LOT OF CHANGE GOING ON.  WE SEE THE SAME CHANGES IN MEDIA FOR EXAMPLE.  TELEVISION HAS CHANGED DRAMATICALLY IN HOW PEOPLE OF COLOR ARE PORTRAYED BUT ALSO CHANGING VERY DRAMATICALLY IN HOW HOMOSEXUALITY IS PORTRAYED.

 

SARA: I DON’T WANT TO RULE OUT THE FAMILY STRUCTURE ALSO HAS CHANGED.  THERE’S A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO YOU KNOW YOU’RE RELATED TO WHO ARE GAY.  THERE’S A LOT OF INTERRACIAL MARRIAGES YOU KNOW AND I THINK THAT THE MAKEUP OF THE UNITED STATES HAS MOVED AND SHIFTED SO MUCH THAT THOSE KIDS.

 

KATHLEEN: IT’S INTERESTING THAT YOU SAY THAT SARA BECAUSE SOME OF THE MOST PROFOUND STATEMENTS I’VE HEARD FROM PARISHIONERS COME FROM SOME GRANDMOTHERS WHO NOW HAVE SOME BIRACIAL CHILDREN AND IT’S LIKE IT’S JUST A WHOLE NEW WORLD. 

 

WALTER: OR BISEXUAL OR TRANSGENDER OR A LESBIAN OR GAY PERSON IN YOUR FAMILY.

 

MARCELLA: IT CHANGES YOUR WORLD.  LET ME ASK MY OTHER QUESTION REAL QUICK AND JUST THROW IT OUT THERE.   IT SEEMS TO ME THAT ON SOME OF THESE ISSUES PEOPLE ARE CONFLATING POLITICAL CHOICES WITH THE ISMS.  THEY SAY WELL, I’M NOT, IF WE’RE TALKING ABOUT IMMIGRATION YOU CAN’T TALK ABOUT IMMIGRATION INVOLVING RACISM, YOU HAVE TO TALK ABOUT IT AS AN ISSUE INVOLVING NATIONAL SECURITY.  IF YOU’RE YOU KNOW CHALLENGING ME ON GAY AND LESBIAN MARRIAGE AND YOU’RE TRYING TO FORCE ME INTO BEING A LIBERAL AND I’M A CONSERVATIVE, HOW DOES THAT COMPLICATE THINGS?  IS THERE A WAY TO GET PAST THE COMPLICATION?

 

WALTER: THAT’S A TOUGH ONE BECAUSE I THINK THAT’S EXACTLY WHAT’S HAPPENING AND WE SEE IT SO OFTEN WITH IMMIGRATION AND RACISM EVEN WHEN YOU DO AN ANTI RACISM TRAINING, INVARIABLY SOMEONE WILL COME UP AND MOVE IT TOWARD THE IMMIGRATION ISSUE.  WHAT WE TRY TO SAY IS THAT IT IS A VERY IMPORTANT ISSUE THAT NEEDS TO STAND ON ITS OWN AND WE NEED TO DEAL WITH IT BUT WE ALSO NEED TO DEAL WITH THE OTHER ISSUES SO WE TRY TO KEEP THEM SEPARATE BUT IT’S VERY DIFFICULT BECAUSE I THINK YOU HIT IT, IT’S VERY ACCURATE IN WHAT YOU SAY AND THAT PEOPLE WILL DO THAT ALL THE TIME AND I DON’T HAVE A GOOD ANSWER FOR IT IN TERMS OF HOW WE JUST CUT IT OFF BUT THAT CONVERSATION AND TRY TO TALK ABOUT THE IMMIGRATION ISSUE AS AN IMMIGRATION ISSUE AND THEN TRY TO TALK ABOUT RACISM AS RACISM IS THE WAY THAT WE’VE DEALT WITH IT.    WHETHER THAT’S RIGHT OR WRONG.

 

MARCELLA: WELL OUR TIME’S ALMOST UP SO I’LL JUST GO THROUGH AND ALLOW YOU THE OPPORTUNITY, OFTEN YOU’RE TALKING ABOUT THESE KINDS OF ISSUES YOU CAN ONLY HAVE A HOPE.  SO, WHAT IS YOUR BRIEF HOPE THAT YOU WOULD EXPRESS FOR HOW WE COULD MOVE FORWARD.

 

KATHLEEN: MY HOPE AS A PASTOR IS THAT PEOPLE OF FAITH NOT ONLY OF THE CHURCHES BUT OF ALL FAITHS, WOULD TAKE THIS CHALLENGE AND SAY WE NEED TO LEAD THE WAY.  THE CHURCHES HISTORICALLY, MOST OF THEM DID NOT LEAD THE WAY ON CIVIL RIGHTS AND ON FIGHTING RACISM AND IT’S TIME FOR US TO STEP AND SAY WE HAVE A SERIOUS PROBLEM AND GOD WANTS US HERE IN THE FOREFRONT.

 

WALTER: TWO THINGS.  ONE, I AGREE, AS PEOPLE OF FAITH, ESPECIALLY CHRISTIANS, WE HAVE THIS CALLING THAT TO BE HOSPITABLE AND INVITING AND WELCOME TO THIS STRANGER AMONG US AND I THINK WE NEED TO STEP UP TO THE PLATE AS CHRISTIANS AND START TO LOOK AT OURSELVES IN TERMS OF HOW WE ARE DOING THAT AND THEN AS A COUNTRY, AS A COMMUNITY I THINK WE NEED TO BE MORE OPENING AND WELCOMING TO PEOPLE WHO ARE DIFFERENT AND TO TRY TO LOWER THE LEVEL OF INTOLERANCE. 

 

MARCELLA: SARA YOU GET THE LAST WORD BUT IT’S GOT TO BE A QUICK ONE.

 

SARA: ALRIGHT.  MY HOPE IS THAT WE CAN MODEL FOR OUR CHILDREN TOLERANCE AND TO ERADICATE FEAR AND RACISM AND ALL THE OTHER ISMS AND BRING UP OUR CHILDREN TO CONTINUE THAT. 

 

MARCELLA: WELL THE TITLE OF THIS PRESENTATION TODAY WAS DARE WE TALK ABOUT RACE, WE MANAGED TO TALK ABOUT RACE AND TO PUT OUT SOME IDEAS ABOUT HOW WE COULD ALL BE MORE SUCCESSFUL IN IT SO I’D LIKE TO THANK OUR PANELISTS ONE MORE TIME.  PASTOR KATHLEEN MOORE, ASSISTANT BISHOP WALTER MAY AND IOWA CITY HUMAN RIGHTS COMMISSIONER SARA BAIRD AND I’D LIKE TO THANK OUR AUDIENCE FOR JOINING US AND I’D LIKE TO ASK YOU TO JOIN US AGAIN SOMETIME FOR ANOTHER EDITION OF ETHICAL PERSPECTIVES ON THE NEWS.