SCOTT: GOOD MORNING AND WELCOME TO ETHICAL PERSPECTIVES ON THE NEWS.  MY NAME IS SCOTT SAMUELSON AND I’M A PROFESSOR OF PHILOSOPHY AT KIRKWOOD COMMUNITY COLLEGE IN IOWA CITY.  ON SEPTEMBER 16^TH EMPLOYEES OF BLACKWATER, A SELF DESCRIBED PRIVATE SECURITY CONTRACTOR SHOT AND KILLED 17 IRAQIS CIVILIANS.  AN FBI INVESTIGATION HAS JUST FOUND THAT AT LEAST 14 OF THE KILLINGS WERE UNJUSTIFIED.  THERE HAVE BEEN NUMEROUS ALLEGATIONS OF INDISCRIMINATE SHOOTINGS AGAINST PRIVATE FIRMS LIKE BLACKWATER AND IT IS CURRENTLY A QUESTION BEFORE THE AMERICAN GOVERNMENT, WHAT KIND OF OVERSIGHT THESE FIRMS REQUIRE.  RECENTLY THE STATE DEPARTMENT HAS ASKED FOR 500 MILLION DOLLARS TO PAY FOR FIRMS LIKE BLACKWATER THIS YEAR.  INCREASINGLY IT SEEMS WE’RE PRIVATIZING ASPECTS OF THE MILITARY.  ON SEPTEMBER 10^TH, 2001 THE DAY BEFORE THE TERRORISTS ATTACKS, DONALD RUMSFELD WARNED OF A THREAT, A SERIOUS THREAT TO THE SECURITY OF THE UNITED STATES.  HE WASN’T TALKING ABOUT TERRORISM, HE WAS DESCRIBING THE PENTAGON BUREAUCRACY.  SHOULD MILITARY DUTIES BE DONE INCREASINGLY BY PRIVATE FIRMS OR SHOULD ALL THOSE FIGHTING ON OUR BEHALF BE PART OF A PUBLIC INSTITUTION?  IT SEEMS WE DON’T HAVE SUFFICIENT TROOPS TO CONTINUE FIGHTING THIS WAR WITHOUT PRIVATE SECURITY FIRMS BUT CAN WE WIN THE WAR WITH THEM.  WE HAVE THREE FINE PANELISTS TO DISCUSS THESE QUESTIONS TODAY.  TO MY LEFT, PETER MARTIN, STAFF SARGENT IN THE RESERVES AND A VETERAN OF THE CURRENT WAR, THANKS FOR BEING ON.  DAVID DOERGE, ASSOCIATE PROFESSOR OF POLITICAL SCIENCE AT MT MERCY, THANKS FOR BEING ON.  AND MARK BOWDEN, EDITOR OF THE GAZETTE, THANKS A LOT FOR BEING ON.  WELL, DAVID LET’S START WITH THE QUESTION, SOMETIMES THESE FIRMS HAVE BEEN DESCRIBED AS MERCENARIES, IS THAT AN ACCURATE DESIGNATION OF THEM OR SHOULD WE CALL THEM AS THEY’RE USUALLY CALLED, SECURITY CONTRACTORS.

 

DAVID: WELL I THINK YOU CAN GET HUNG UP ON SEMANTICS BUT GIVEN THE AMOUNT OF FIRE POWER THEY CARRY AND SOME OF THE JOBS THAT THEY CARRY OUT I THINK THEY’VE CROSSED OVER INTO THAT.  THESE AREN’T SOLDIERS OF FORTUNE LIKE WE READ ABOUT IN SOME OF THE MAGAZINES BUT THEY ARE BEING PAID TO DO JOBS THAT AMERICAN MILITARY HAVE DONE IN THE PAST.  I MEAN IT WAS ALWAYS THE MARINES THAT PROTECTED OUR DIPLOMATIC CORPS IN THE PAST.  NOW WE’RE OUT HIRING PEOPLE WHO SEEM TO HAVE SOME LEGAL AMBIGUITY, THEY CAN PRETTY MUCH DO WHAT THEY WANT AND NOT BE PROSECUTED BECAUSE OF THE WAY THE SITUATION HAS BEEN SET UP IN IRAQ AND THAT’S ONE OF THE PROBLEMS.

 

I KIND OF DISAGREE WITH YOU ON THE DEFINITION OF MERCENARY, THAT TO ME WOULD BE A WARRIOR WHO ACTUALLY FIGHTS FOR ANOTHER SOVEREIGNTY IN AN ARMY THAT’S NOT HIS OWN ARMY.  FOR A COUNTRY THAT’S NOT HIS OWN COUNTRY.  THESE GUYS ARE PROVIDING SECURITY FOR HIGH LEVEL DIPLOMATS AND HIGH PROFILE PERSONNEL AND GOVERNMENT CONTRACTORS AND PEOPLE LIKE THAT SO I THINK IN THE TRUE DEFINITION OF MERCENARY I DON’T THINK THEY ARE.

 

DAVID:  WELL THEY’RE PAID AND THEY’RE NOT PART OF THE MILITARY SO THAT MAKES THEM MERCENARIES BY DEFINITION. 

 

SCOTT:  WELL AND THEY DO HAVE THE PROBLEM, THEY HAVE HIRED SOME NON AMERICANS TO WORK FOR THEM INCLUDING I KNOW SOME CHILEANS WHO WERE TRAINED UNDER THE PENOT REGIME SO IT DOES KIND OF BLUR IT A LITTLE BIT BUT I WANTED TO ASK YOU PETER ABOUT JUST WHAT THE IMPRESSION ON THE GROUND IS OF PEOPLE IN THE MILITARY LIKE YOURSELF OF BLACKWATER AND OTHER SUCH FIRMS.  DO YOU HAVE MUCH RUN INS WITH THEM, WHAT’S YOUR SENSE?

 

PETER: I DIDN’T HAVE MUCH DEALINGS WITH THE PRIVATE CONTRACTOR, SECURITY CONTRACTORS OVER THERE, BLACKWATER PER SE, BUT IN A SENSE, SOLDIERS KIND OF LOOK UP TO THEM A LITTLE BIT, MORE REVERED, FASCINATION MORE OR LESS AND I MEAN YOU GOT TO UNDERSTAND THAT THERE’S SOME PEOPLE IN THE MILITARY THAT ARE LEND THEIR OWN PERSONA TO THE ADRENALINE RUSH YOU KNOW OF BEING IN COMBAT AND THOSE KIND OF THINGS AND A LOT OF SOLDIERS, I WOULD SAY 90% OF THE SOLDIERS IN THE MILITARY ARE REDUCED TO DOING MUNDANE ROUTINE ACTIVITIES THROUGHOUT EVEN THEIR TOUR OVER THERE, DRIVING TRUCKS OR SUPPLY ACTIVITIES OR THOSE KIND OF THINGS.  YOU’LL HAVE YOUR SOLDIERS, YOU KNOW THE REAL WARRIOR TYPES SOLDIERS THAT WILL BE DRAWN TO THAT KIND OF ACTIVITY AND THAT FASCINATION WITH THAT.

 

SCOTT: RIGHT AND SO IS THERE AN APPEAL IN THE SENSE OF NOT JUST THE WARRIOR ASPECT BUT THE SENSE OF LIKE I CAN MAKE A LOT MORE MONEY WORKING FOR A FIRM LIKE BLACKWATER THAN I’M GETTING PAID BY MY OWN GOVERNMENT TO DO A SIMILAR JOB.

 

ABSOLUTELY, I WOULD AGREE WITH THAT.  I MEAN THERE ARE SOLDIERS THAT ACTUALLY APPRECIATE THE OPPORTUNITY TO DO DEPLOYED BECAUSE THEY’RE MAKING BETTER MONEY THERE THAN THEY ARE IN THE UNITED STATES. 

 

SCOTT: MARK LET’S TURN TO YOU THEN, BLACKWATER MARKETS ITSELF AS BEING THE MOST RESPONSIVE COST EFFECTIVE MEANS OF AFFECTING THE STRATEGIC BALANCE IN SUPPORT OF SECURITY AND PEACE.  DO YOU SEE THAT AS TRUE?  DO WE REQUIRE THESE PRIVATE SECURITY CONTRACTORS RIGHT NOW? 

 

MARK: WELL CERTAINLY THE WAY THAT THE GOVERNMENT HAS APPROACHED THINGS IN THIS WAR, IT MAKES SENSE.  WE HAVE AS I SAID WE HAVE A CIRCUMSTANCE WHERE WE CERTAINLY HAVE U.S. TROOPS IN LARGE MEASURE IN IRAQ BUT WE ALSO HAVE THIS ISSUE OF PROTECTING THE DIPLOMATIC CORPS OF THE COUNTRY AND IT ALMOST SEEMS LIKE YOU NEED THAT PARTICULAR FORCE THERE SO TO SPEAK TO MAINTAIN A FOCUS ON THAT.  ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I’VE NOTICED I GUESS IN THE REPORTING ON BLACKWATER AND SO FORTH, THERE HAS BEEN TO SOME DEGREE THIS PERCEPTION THAT THESE FOLKS ARE IN HIGHLY MOBILE VEHICLES GOING THROUGH NEIGHBORHOODS AND SPRAYING GUNSHOTS INDISCRIMINATELY AND SO FORTH BUT LITERALLY THEY’VE HAD TO WORK UNDER SOME PRETTY ADVERSE CONDITIONS.  THEY ARE THE ONES THAT REALLY ARE IN THE DENSE PART OF THE CITIES AND SO FORTH WHERE THE ENCOUNTERS WITH SUICIDE BOMBERS AND SO FORTH MUCH GREATER.

 

SCOTT: BUT I MEAN IT IS TRUE THAT THERE HAVE BEEN SOME INCIDENTS AND THE FBI HAS FOUND AND SO IT CREATES KIND OF A PROBLEM EVEN IF IT’S JUST A PERCEPTUAL PROBLEM, I DON’T KNOW IF IT IS BUT I THINK ONE COMMENTATOR TALKED ABOUT SAYING YOU KNOW WE CAN’T REALLY FIGHT THE WAR WITHOUT BLACKWATER AND SUCH FIRMS BUT WE CAN’T WIN IT WITH THEM BECAUSE IT CREATES A KIND OF NEGATIVE PERCEPTION IN PEOPLES MINDS, I DON’T KNOW, DO YOU SEE THAT?

 

MARK: WELL I UNDERSTAND THAT COMMENT BUT I ALSO WOULD SAY THAT AND AGAIN, I’M ONLY REACTING TO REPORTS AND I’VE LOOKED AT QUITE A FEW, THAT AND AS LATE AS TODAY THERE WAS AN INCIDENT INVOLVING A BLACKWATER AND SOMEBODY WHO WAS SHOT, AN UNARMED PERSON WHO WAS SHOT BUT I THINK WE NEED TO UNDERSTAND WHAT ARE THE CIRCUMSTANCES AND THE CONDITIONS THERE AT THAT POINT.

 

AND ALSO THAT THESE SECURITY PERSONNEL ARE OPERATING WITH MINIMUM AMOUNT OF PERSONNEL AND THEY’RE IN A SITUATION THAT THEY’RE WORKING WITH HIGH PROFILE, WHAT WOULD BE HIGH PROFILE TARGETS FOR THE INSURGENTS TO ATTACK.  SO THEY’RE ALWAYS IN THE THICK OF A DANGEROUS SITUATION. 

 

SCOTT: RIGHT SO THAT’S THE WARRIOR PERSONALITY THAT’S ATTRACTED TO THAT.

 

DAVID: WELL I GUESS I HAVE TO DISAGREE WITH MY TWO COLLEAGUES ON THE PANEL BECAUSE I MEAN A GUY GOING OUT ON CHRISTMAS AND GETTING DRUNK AND THEN SHOOTING THE GUARD FOR THE VICE PRESIDENT OF IRAQ DOESN’T STRIKE ME AS A HIGH DANGEROUS SITUATION, HE SHOT HIM DEAD, HE WAS HUSTLED OUT OF IRAQ AND HE WAS NEVER PROSECUTED AND EVER SINCE THEY’VE BEEN THERE, SECURITY FIRMS AND NOT JUST BLACKWATER, THERE ARE SEVERAL OVER THERE, NO ONE HAS EVER BEEN PROSECUTED FOR A CRIME, FOR MURDER, IT’S NEVER HAPPENED.  THE REASON IS, PART OF THE REASON IS THAT PAUL BREMER, THE GUY WHO WAS IN CHARGE OF IRAQ FOR A LONG TIME GRANTED IMMUNITY TO ALL SECURITY FORCES WHEN THEY GOT THERE AND JUST BEFORE I GOT OVER HERE I WATCHED A TAPE OF EXACTLY WHAT YOU’RE TALKING ABOUT, IT’S ON YOUTUBE, YOU CAN WATCH IT, IT WAS AGES SECURITY FORCES, IT’S A TAPE THAT WAS MADE IN THEIR VEHICLE DRIVING AROUND AND AS CARS CAME UP BEHIND THEM, THEY SHOT THEM.  THEY FILLED THEM FULL OF LEAD, YOU COULD SEE THE CARS CRASH.  THAT’S ONE INCIDENT BUT NOW WE HAVE THE FBI SAYING THAT 14 PEOPLE WERE KILLED.  THEY NEVER FOUND ONE SHELL CASING FROM ANY INSURGENT AT THE SCENE.  I MEAN THE THING THAT I’M SAYING AND THIS IS IN SUPPORT OF AMERICAN FORCES OVER THERE BECAUSE I’M A VETERAN MYSELF.  I DON’T WANT PEOPLE OVER THERE CREATING SITUATIONS WHERE THEY NEVER GET PROSECUTED, THERE IS NO HAND OF THE LAW TO KEEP THEM IN LINE AND THEN THE IRAQIS GET MAD AT EVERYBODY BECAUSE THEY DON’T DISTINGUISH BETWEEN AMERICANS OR AMERICA.

 

THAT’S THE PERCEPTION PROBLEM.

 

DAVID:  AND I THINK IT MAKES IT A LOT TOUGHER FOR THE GOOD JOB THAT AMERICAN TROOPS ARE TRYING TO DO TO BUILD SAFETY AND SECURITY IN THE NEIGHBORHOODS AND THESE OTHER THINGS WHEN YOU HAVE THESE KINDS OF INCIDENTS AND IT ALL GOES BACK TO WE DECIDED TO DO AN ALL VOLUNTEER ARMY AND THE ABRAMS PLAN AS IT’S KNOWN SAID WELL THAT MEANS WE’RE GOING TO HAVE TO CONTRACT OUT.  THAT’S PART OF THE DEAL.  WE HAVE MORE CONTRACTORS, MILITARY CONTRACTORS IN IRAQ THAN WE DO TROOPS.  WE HAVE ABOUT 160,000.  NOW, NOT ALL OF THOSE GUYS ARE SECURITY GUARDS OR THINGS OF THAT NATURE, THEY’RE THE ONES GETTING ALL THE HEADLINES BUT YOU KNOW AT WHAT POINT AND WHAT PRICE ARE WE PAYING THIS.  YOU ASKED A QUESTION ABOUT COST.  IT COSTS $445,000 A YEAR TO HAVE A PRIVATE SECURITY GUARD FOR THE STATE DEPARTMENT AS COMPARED TO ABOUT 50 OR 60 THOUSAND A YEAR FOR A SARGENT IN THE MILITARY TO DO THE SAME JOB.

 

SCOTT: HOPEFULLY WE’LL GET TO THAT.  LET’S GO BACK TO THIS OVERSIGHT ISSUE AND SO WHAT KIND OF RULES OF ENGAGEMENT DO GUARDS WORKING FOR THESE PRIVATE SECURITY FIRMS HAVE AND ARE THEY DIFFERENT FROM THE AMERICAN MILITARY RULES FOR ENGAGEMENT, CAN YOU SPEAK TO THAT?

 

WELL THAT’S A GOOD POINT.  U.S. MILITARY PERSONNEL ARE HELD TO A VERY STRICT SET OF RULES FOR ENGAGEMENT REQUIRING POSITIVE IDENTIFICATION BEFORE THEY ENGAGE ANY PEOPLE AT ALL.  YOU HAVE TO ESTABLISH HOSTILE INTENT OR ESTABLISH AN AURA OF HOSTILE INTENT OR HOSTILE ACT AND U.S. MILITARY ALL KNOW WHAT THOSE RULES OF ENGAGEMENT ARE SO THEY’RE VERY WELL RESTRICTED, NOT A LOT OF TRIGGER FINGERS OUT THERE. 

 

SCOTT: AND TO WHAT EXTENT IS THERE ACCOUNTABILITY FOR THE MILITARY?

 

HIGH LEVEL.

 

SCOTT: YEAH AND DO YOU THINK THAT THERE’S A SIMILAR LEVEL OF ACCOUNTABILITY OR SHOULD BE A SIMILAR LEVEL OF ACCOUNTABILITY?

 

I BELIEVE THERE SHOULD BE A SIMILAR LEVEL BUT I DON’T BELIEVE THAT IT’S THERE.  YOU GOT TO ADMIT THAT IT SEEMS TO BE A LOT MORE INDISCRIMINATE FIRING OF WEAPONS AND THOSE KIND OF THINGS BUT WE DON’T, WE’RE ARMCHAIR QUARTER BACKING THIS FROM, WE’RE NICE SAFE AND SOUND.  WE AREN’T IN THE THICK OF IT.  THOSE THAT SERVED, WE DON’T KNOW, I MEAN, I’M JUST SAYING FROM MY POINT OF VIEW, NOT HAVING BEEN THERE IT’S EASY TO SAY THEY SHOULD HAVE DONE THIS OR THEY SHOULD HAVE DONE THIS.  IT’S ALL EASY FOR US TO SAY THAT, WE’RE ALL SAFE AND SOUND BACK HERE BUT WE’RE NOT ONE OF THOSE GUYS SITTING OUT THERE GETTING SHOT AT.

 

I THINK ANOTHER THING THAT’S HAPPENED IS THE RESPONSIBILITY FOR THAT.  A PART OF THIS IS MAYBE THE MISHANDLING OF CERTAIN ASPECTS OF THIS WAR ORIGINALLY, THE SECURITY GROUP WAS UNDER THE SUPERVISION STATE DEPARTMENT, THAT HAS BEEN CHANGED TO THE PENTAGON, MAYBE THAT HAS SOME BEARING ON THIS ACCOUNTABILITY THAT WASN’T THERE AND MAYBE IN SOME RESPECTS STILL ISN’T THERE.  THE FACT THAT THEY WERE GIVEN IMMUNITY FROM PROSECUTION AND ALLOWED TO CONDUCT THEMSELVES IN A WAY THAT THE MILITARY COULD NEVER, THAT IS CAUSING.

 

SCOTT: IT DOES SOUND LIKE A VOLATILE COMBINATION.  I MEAN WAR IS STRESSFUL IN ITSELF AS YOU’RE SAYING WARRIOR PERSONALITIES ATTRACTED TO THIS, THEY’RE IN DANGEROUS SITUATIONS REPEATEDLY AND THEN THERE ISN’T ANY PARTICULAR OVERSIGHT NECESSARILY FROM THE MILITARY FROM ANOTHER GROUP, I MEAN IT’S A RECIPE FOR SOMETHING BAD HAPPENING.

 

I THINK PETES RIGHT, THAT WE DON’T KNOW BECAUSE WE’RE OVER HERE BUT I’LL TAKE THE WORD OF A MILITARY COMMANDER WHO ARE OVER THERE AND THEY SAY THAT THESE GUYS CAUSE THEM PROBLEMS, LOTS OF PROBLEMS BECAUSE OF THEIR INDISCRIMINATE USE OF FORCE AND THEIR OVERALL, THEY NOT ONLY DO THIS, THEY DO WHAT THEY CALL COUNTER FLOWING THROUGH TRAFFIC.  THEY’LL DRIVE ON THE WRONG SIDE OF THE ROAD SO THAT THEY DON’T HAVE TO SIT IN A TRAFFIC JAM.  THEY’LL KNOCK CARS OFF THE ROAD RIGHT AND LEFT AND IT’S HAPPENED ALL THE TIME SO THEY’VE CAUSED A LOT OF DAMAGE.  WHAT DO YOU THINK THAT DOES TO THE CREDIBILITY OF THE AMERICAN MISSION IN IRAQ?  IT DOESN’T HELP RIGHT AND SO IT ONLY TAKES A FEW BAD APPLES TO STAIN EVERYBODY AND I KIND OF FIND THAT AN AFFRONT TO THE MISSION AND TO OUR TROOPS THAT ARE OVER THERE.

 

MARK:  I THINK THAT THE OTHER THING IS THAT THIS KIND OF EXPLODED IN FRONT OF THE AMERICAN PUBLIC.  I THINK A LOT OF PEOPLE DID NOT UNDERSTAND THAT PRIVATE CONTRACTORS WERE PROVIDING THESE KIND OF SERVICES AND A LOT OF PEOPLE WERE THINKING FOR GOODNESS SAKES WE’RE AT WAR, WE’RE SENDING OUR TROOPS INTO IRAQ AND SO FORTH AND WHAT IS THIS ALL ABOUT.  WE KNOW THAT THERE ARE A LOT OF PRIVATE CONTRACTORS IN IRAQ BUT WE WERE THINKING MORE IN TERMS OF SUPPLIES AND OTHER THINGS THAT WE WERE SEEING THE COVERAGE ON AND NOT SO MUCH THE ESSENTIAL SECURITY OF AMERICAN DIPLOMATS, AMERICAN GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS.

 

AND WITH THAT IN MIND YOU KNOW, WHAT WOULD YOU REPLACE IT WITH?  WOULD YOU REPLACE IT WITH SOLDIERS?  MORE SOLDIERS, LOWER PAID, PUTTING THEM IN HARMS WAY TO DO DIPLOMATIC SECURITY?

 

WE DON’T HAVE THE TRAINING.

 

BUT THAT HAS BEEN THE TRADITIONAL MISSION OF THE MARINE CORPS.  IF YOU GO TO ANY EMBASSY IN THE WORLD YOU RUN INTO MARINE GUARDS, THAT’S THEIR JOB.

 

AND THEY WILL OPERATE WITH A LOT MORE HIGHER LEVEL NUMBERS OF PERSONNEL DOING THAT MISSION.

 

RIGHT SO IT’S A NUMBERS PROBLEM

 

SCOTT: BUT THIS RAISES ANOTHER POINT THAT SOME PEOPLE MAKE WHICH IS THEY SAY ALL RIGHT WE DON’T HAVE THE SUFFICIENT NUMBER OF TROOPS IN THE WAR BUT THEN DOESN’T THAT MEAN THAT WE NEED TO SOMEHOW FIND WAYS OF GETTING MORE TROOPS I GUESS WE SHOULD HAVE A DRAFT, THE GOVERNMENT SAYS THAT’S A POLITICAL SUICIDE BUT IT SEEMS LIKE IT WOULD BE AT LEAST A FEASIBLE WAY OF GENERATING MORE TROOPS NECESSARY TO DO A JOB AT HAND IF YOU BELIEVE IN A MILITARY AS A PUBLIC INSTITUTION, I MEAN DOES THAT SEEM UNREASONABLE OR IS THIS A

 

WELL I THINK RIGHT NOW WE’RE TALKING ABOUT THIS SITUATION YOU CAN BE GUILTY OF FIGHTING ONE SITUATION AND NOT TAKING A BROADER LOOK AT THE PROBLEM IT WAS BAD PLANNING TO GO INTO THE WAR WITH TOO FEW OF TROOPS TO GET THE JOB DONE AND THEY REALLY DIDN’T THINK THEY WERE GOING TO HAVE TO MAINTAIN I MEAN WE’VE BEEN THERE LONGER THAN WE WERE IN WORLD WAR TWO AND THEY DIDN’T THINK WE WERE GOING TO HAVE TO BE THERE THAT LONG.  I REMEMBER PAUL WILFOWITZ GOING BEFORE THE AMERICAN PUBLIC AND SAYING THE IRAQ WAR IS A WAR THAT WILL PAY FOR ITSELF, WE’LL BE OUT OF THERE IN NO TIME AND ALL OF THAT AND NONE OF THAT’S HAPPENED AND SO NOW WE’VE GOT A SITUATION WHERE WE DO HAVE TOO FEW TROOPS, WE DO NEED SECURITY AND SO THIS SITUATION IS SORT OF A MICROCOSM OF THE WHOLE PROBLEM THAT WE’VE GOT IN IRAQ THAT WE’VE REALLY GOT TO THINK ABOUT IN HOW WE’RE GOING TO GET OUT OF IT AND HOW NOT TO GET INTO IT AGAIN.

 

RIGHT.

 

SCOTT: ANOTHER WAY OF GETTING OUT MY QUESTION I GUESS WOULD BE TO SAY THAT SO FAR WE’VE RELIED ON A VOLUNTEER ARMY AND IF WE DON’T HAVE PEOPLE SUFFICIENT SIGNING UP TO DO IT WHAT IS THAT TELL US ABOUT THE NATURE OF WHAT WE’RE DOING.  I MEAN DOES THAT RAISE A QUESTION IN PEOPLES MINDS THAT SOMEHOW WE’RE NOT WILLING TO CONTINUE TO DO THIS.  WE ARE WILLING TO PAY I GUESS EXTRA FOR SECURITY FIRMS TO DO IT BUT WE’RE NOT WILLING AS A PUBLIC INSTITUTION TO RISK PEOPLE IN MILITARY, I DON’T KNOW.

 

MARK:  WELL CERTAINLY, WHAT’S PLAYED OUT IN THE IRAQ WAR IN MANY WAYS I’M SURE IS GOING TO BE ANALYZED AND SAYING THIS WAS NOT TYPICAL, IT WAS NOT HANDLED IN NECESSARILY THE WAY THINGS SHOULD HAVE BEEN AND SO FORTH WE LOOK AT THE PERFORMANCE OF THE U.S. TROOPS, THEY’VE DONE EXCEPTIONAL IN ADVERSE CONDITIONS BUT I ALSO THINK ABOUT THESE PRIVATE SECURITY FORCE, HAS IT ACHIEVED ITS MISSION, HAS IT BEEN SUCCESSFUL AND GRANTED AT TIMES ARE CAST AS MAVERICKS AND CLEARLY ABOVE THE LAW BASED ON RULES THAT WERE PUT INTO PLACE BUT HAVE THEY BEEN EFFECTIVE IN PROTECTING THE U.S. ENVOYS AND SO FORTH AND HAS THAT BEEN AT ALL COSTS OR ANY COSTS YOU KNOW THERE’S GOT TO BE MORE ANALYSIS IN THAT BUT COULD THEY BE REPLACED WITH U.S. TROOPS.  IT SEEMS TO ME THAT HISTORICALLY IF THEY HAVE, IF THE SERVICES HAVE BEEN HANDLED BY AMERICAN FORCES THEN MAYBE THAT’S THE TAKEAWAY IN THE MIDST OF A WAR THAT CONTINUES TO BE SCRUTINIZED AS TO WHAT IT DIDN’T WORK AND WHAT SHOULD HAVE BEEN. 

 

SCOTT: THE TAKEAWAY IS THAT WE SHOULD CONSIDER HAVING THE MILITARY DO THIS IN THE FUTURE.

 

MARK:  WELL I THINK NOT ONLY THAT BUT IF NOT, IT COMES BACK TO WHAT ARE THE GUIDELINES, THE GROUND RULES FOR THE PRIVATE FORCES AND PART OF THIS GOES DOWN TO THE U.S. ROLE IN SETTING THE GOVERNMENT UP AND SETTING SOME RULES IN PLACE THAT ARE NOT NECESSARILY CONSISTENT WITH THE SELF GOVERNANCE OF THAT COUNTRY.  THEY SHOULD BE ABLE TO PROSECUTE PEOPLE THAT INDISCRIMINATELY KILL PEOPLE

 

SCOTT: THE IRAQI GOVERNMENT.

 

MARK: EXACTLY.  BUT AT THE SAME TIME THAT FORCE, IF IT IS IN PLACE TO PROTECT U.S. INTERESTS THEN WE NEED TO KNOW WHAT THE RULES ARE TO DO THAT.

 

WELL OBVIOUSLY EVERYBODY AGREES THAT IT’S A PROBLEM BECAUSE THE PENTAGON AND CONDILIZA RICE AND A NUMBER OF OTHERS ARE TAKING A LOT OF EXTRAORDINARY ACTIONS RIGHT NOW TO TRY TO BRING THEM UNDER CONTROL.  THEY SIGN A CONTRACT THAT SAYS THAT THEY’RE ONLY SUPPOSED TO FIRE FOR DEFENSIVE PURPOSES ONLY OR WHEN THEY PERCEIVE A DIRECT THREAT.  NOT TOO DISSIMILAR, MAYBE EVEN A LITTLE STRICTER BUT IF YOU’RE NEVER GOING TO ENFORCE THOSE RULES AND THEY’VE NEVER BEEN ENFORCED THEN THEY DON’T COUNT FOR MUCH.  I THINK THAT’S WHY THEY’RE TRYING TO RING THEM IN NOW.  YOU SORT OF UNLEASHED IT, DIDN’T PAY ATTENTION AND NOW THEY’RE TRYING TO PULL IT BACK BUT IT’S A LITTLE BIT LATE AND THE IRAQI GOVERNMENT’S FURIOUS BECAUSE THEY’RE SAYING WHAT DO YOU MEAN, PEOPLE CAN SHOOT PEOPLE IN OUR STREETS AND YOU’RE NOT GOING TO PROSECUTE THEM AND YOU’RE NOT GOING TO LET US PROSECUTE THEM.  IF YOU LOOK AT THE COST TO OUR MISSION, WE HAVE HAD SOME INCIDENTS WHERE THESE PRIVATE CONTRACTORS HAVE FIRED ON OUR TROOPS.  THAT’S JUST INEXCUSABLE TO ME.  I MEAN REGARDLESS OF WHETHER PRIVATE SECURITY FORCES ARE NECESSARY IN THE FUTURE, A WHOLE LOT NEEDS TO BE DONE BEFORE WE REPEAT THIS KIND OF SCENARIO AGAIN. 

 

SCOTT: AND THIS GOES BACK TO THIS IDEA I THINK THAT’S BEEN STATED MANY TIMES BY VARIOUS PEOPLE THAT TO WIN THE WAR, WHATEVER THAT MEANS REQUIRES A KIND OF POLITICAL SOLUTION AS WELL AS A MILITARY SOLUTION AND SO THE PART OF THE POLITICAL SOLUTION HAS TO BE WITH THE PERCEPTION OF THE CURRENT SITUATION IN THE AMERICAN PRESENCE THERE.  IT’S HARD TO WIN FROM THE MILITARY ANGLE THERE’S A PERCEPTION THAT KEEPS THAT FROM HAPPENING AND AS YOU SAY, I THINK IT DOES, IT IS HARD TO DISCRIMINATE THE IRAQI MIND BETWEEN A PRIVATE CONTRACTOR AND AN AMERICAN.

 

ESPECIALLY IF YOU’RE AN IRAQI ON THE STREET. 

 

WE CAN’T, TO WIN IS WE CAN’T ALLOW THE PERCEPTION THAT WE LOST OUT WILL TO WIN OVER THERE.  IT SHOULD BE THAT WE’VE ESTABLISHED A GOVERNMENT AND A DEMOCRATIC SOCIETY THAT CAN TAKE CARE OF ITS OWN BUT IF WE ALL OF A SUDDEN DECIDE THAT WE’RE GOING TO SET A DATE AND LEAVE THEN THEY, THE INSURGENCY WILL HAVE WON BASICALLY I THINK.

 

I DON’T THINK THAT’S THE QUESTION, I MEAN THAT’S THE QUESTION OF WHAT YOU DO LONG TERM.  THE QUESTION OF WHAT YOU DO BEFORE A CERTAIN TIME.  I’M OF THE OPINION AT THIS POINT, DO NO FURTHER HARM BECAUSE I REALLY DON’T THINK THAT THERE’S A MILITARY SOLUTION IN IRAQ ANYMORE.  I THINK IT REALLY IS UP TO THE IRAQIS.

SCOTT: LET’S TO BRING IT BACK TO THIS FOR A SECOND, I WANT TO TALK ABOUT THE EFFECT ON THE MORALE OF THE TROOPS THERE, DO YOU THINK THAT PRIVATE SECURITY FIRMS AND WHAT’S GOING ON AND THE PUBLIC PERCEPTION OF IRAQ AND THINGS HAS AN EFFECT OF THE MORALE OF THE TROOPS OR WHAT’S YOUR VIEW?

 

I DON’T REALLY THINK IT HAS AN EFFECT ON THE MORALE OF THE TROOPS.  I THINK IT MORE OR LESS ALLOWS WHAT LIMITED MILITARY FORCE WE DO HAVE OVER THERE TO DO THE JOB THEY WERE SENT OVER THERE TO DO.  TO BE PRIVATE SECURITY, I DON’T THINK THE MILITARY EVEN WANTS TO DO THAT.  THE COMMANDERS, ALL YOUR COMMANDERS, THEY WANT TO GET AS MANY TROOPS HOME ALIVE AND WELL AS POSSIBLE, THEY DON’T WAN TO SEND MORE TROOPS INTO HARMS WAY AND SET THEM UP FOR INJURY AND DEATH AND THOSE KIND OF THINGS IN SITUATIONS LIKE THAT.

 

SCOTT: SO, MARK, WHAT DO YOU SEE AS BEING A GOOD SOLUTION TO THE PROBLEM?  WHAT STEPS DO YOU THINK NEED TO BE TAKEN TO ADDRESS THE PERCEPTION PROBLEM, TO BRING BLACKWATER.

 

MARK: WELL TO START WITH THE U.S. IS GOING TO HAVE TO DO SOME PROSECUTIONS OF SOME PEOPLE INVOLVED IN SOME OF THIS VERY BLATANT AND INDISCRIMINATE KIND OF THINGS THAT HAVE OCCURRED.  WE’RE TALKING HERE ABOUT THE RELATIONSHIP THAT WE’VE GOT TO HAVE WITH THE GOVERNMENT THERE BUT AT THE SAME TIME THERE’S GOING TO HAVE TO BE SOME BALANCE ON THIS.  THESE FOLKS ARE WORKING UNDER SOME PRETTY ADVERSE CONDITIONS AND I, THE REPORT THAT I READ TODAY THAT TALKED ABOUT HOW A GOVERNMENT OFFICIAL SAID WELL, WE WANT THIS PERSON CHARGED WITH SHOOTING THIS UNARMED PERSON AND FOR DRIVING ON THE WRONG SIDE OF THE STREET.  IT’S MORE THAN DRIVING ON THE WRONG SIDE OF THE STREET.  WHAT WE WERE HEARING FROM THE GOVERNMENT OFFICIAL WAS THAT WE WANT THESE PEOPLE TO BE ACCOUNTABLE TO SOMEONE.  THEY NEED TO BE ACCOUNTABLE TO THE U.S. GOVERNMENT IF THEY’RE NOT GOING TO BE ACCOUNTABLE TO THE IRAQI GOVERNMENT BUT THE WAY IT’S SET UP RIGHT NOW THERE ARE QUESTIONS AS TO WHETHER THE U.S. COULD EVEN TAKE ACTION AGAINST THIS GROUP.

 

SCOTT: RIGHT.  WELL THAT DOES SEEM KIND OF PUZZLING TO ME BECAUSE IF THEY’RE NOT THE MILITARY AND THEY’RE NOT IN THE U.S. AND THEY’RE NOT GOING TO BE PROSECUTED BY IRAQ, THEY ARE IN A KIND OF LEGAL LIMBO AND IT’S HARD TO KNOW EXACTLY WHERE THEY SHOULD FALL AND WHAT THE CONSEQUENCE SHOULD BE.  IF THEY SHOOT SOMEONE AND LET’S SAY WE CAN DETERMINE THAT THEY’RE GUILTY OF AN INDISCRIMINATE MURDER, WHAT’S THE PUNISHMENT, DO THEY GO TO JAIL HERE, DO THEY I MEAN THERE’S NO COURT MARTIAL.

 

THAT HAS TO BE, THAT’S WHAT I’M SAYING.  THAT HAS TO BE A DIRECT.  THE FBI HAS REALLY LOOKED PRETTY CLOSE AT THIS, THEY TALKED TO CLOSE TO 200 DOCUMENTED INCIDENTS, THERE MAY BE MORE OR LESS OR WHATEVER BUT WE CAN’T JUST LEAVE IT AS WELL, WE’VE COME UP WITH ENOUGH INFORMATION THAT MIGHT SUGGEST THAT THERE WAS AN EXCESSIVE USE OR INAPPROPRIATE USE AND LEAVE IT AT THAT, ESPECIALLY IN A COUNTRY WHERE WE’RE TRYING TO TALK ABOUT THE RULE OF LAW AND THE IMPORTANCE OF LAWS AND TO SAY THAT IT EFFECTS EVERYONE BUT A GROUP THAT WE’VE GIVEN EXEMPTION TO.

 

SCOTT: RIGHT, RIGHT.

 

IT WAS INTERESTING TO ME THAT THE IRAQIS TRIED TO CANCEL THE AGREEMENT WITH BLACKWATER ONLY TO FIND OUT THAT THERE WAS NO AGREEMENT.  SO THEY’RE OVER THERE IN KIND OF A LEGAL LIMBO, THERE’S REALLY NEVER BEEN ANYTHING NEGOTIATED WITH THE IRAQI GOVERNMENT.  THE DRIVING ON THE WRONG SIDE KIND OF SOUNDS FUNNY TO US BUT IT’S REALLY THAT COUNTER FLOW THING WHERE THEY JUST PULL OUT INTO TRAFFIC AND THEY CAUSED A LOT OF DESTRUCTION AND A NUMBER OF DEATHS JUST BY DRIVING COUNTER TO THE FLOW OF TRAFFIC.

 

SCOTT: DAVID WHAT DO YOU SEE AS THE RIGHT STEPS WE NEED TO BE TAKING TO ADDRESS THE PROBLEMS THAT EXIST WITH SECURITY FIRMS?

 

DAVID: WELL I THINK THAT YOU HAVE TO ENFORCE THE RULES OF ENGAGEMENT.  THE LAWS ARE CLEAR, THE LAWS ARE THERE.  WHEN YOU SAY THAT YOU’RE IN A DEFENSIVE POSTURE AND YOU’RE ONLY SUPPOSED TO FIRE IN THOSE CIRCUMSTANCES AND THEN YOU SEE THE STATISTICS THAT THERE’S AT LEAST ONE INCIDENT A WEEK OF MORE THAN ONE AND A HALF INCIDENT A WEEK OF SECURITY FIRMS FIRING THEIR WEAPONS AND YOU FIND OUT THAT 80% OF THOSE ARE WHEN THE SECURITY FIRMS FIRED FIRST, THEN CLEARLY THERE NEEDS TO BE SOME RE TRAINING AND RE THINKING OF THIS WHOLE THING.   I THINK YOU GET AT THAT TWO WAYS.  ONE, YOU HAVE TO DO PROSECUTIONS BUT I DON’T LIKE SCAPEGOATING THE CONTRACTORS THAT ARE OVER THERE ALONE I THINK YOU HAVE TO FIND AND PROSECUTE THE FIRMS THEMSELVES.  IF YOU HIT THEM IN THE POCKETBOOK I THINK THAT BRINGS THEM BACK BUT AGAIN, IT TAKES POLITICAL WILL ON THE PART OF THE AMERICAN GOVERNMENT THAT IF YOU’RE GOING TO USE CONTRACTORS THEN YOU ARE ULTIMATELY RESPONSIBLE FOR THEM BECAUSE YOU HIRED THEM AND SO IT’S UP TO OUR GOVERNMENT TO DO THE RIGHT THING AS WELL.

 

SCOTT: RIGHT.  AND WHAT DO YOU SEE PETER AS WHAT NEEDS TO HAPPEN WITH THE SECURITY FIRMS.  WE JUST HAVE ABOUT A MINUTE.

 

PETER: WELL, OBVIOUSLY THEY HAVE THE, THEY’RE ANTONYMOUS, BASICALLY THEY OPERATE AUTONOMOUSLY LIKE IN A COWBOY WILD WEST SHOW.  THEY’RE NOT BEING HELD ACCOUNTABLE AND THAT’S THE WHOLE CRUX OF THE THING.  IT NEEDS TO BE REINED IN BASICALLY.  THEY CAN DO THE JOB I’M SURE THEY CAN DO THE JOB.  MAYBE THEY NEED TO ADD MORE PERSONNEL TO EACH ONE OF THEIR MISSIONS THAT THEY DO.  THEY ARE PROVIDING A SERVICE THAT WOULD BE MUCH MORE COSTLY TO THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT I BELIEVE IN THE LONG RUN IF WE WERE TO USE OUR REGULAR ARMY TROOPS.

 

SCOTT: IT’S COSTLY THOUGH ONE WAY OR THE OTHER THOUGH I MEAN FINANCIALLY IT’S QUITE EXPENSIVE AND ONE WONDERS.  WELL, I’D LIKE TO THANK ALL THE PANELISTS HERE FOR DISCUSSING THIS ISSUE AND I DO THINK IT’S SOMETHING THAT’S REALLY COME ONTO OUR RADAR RECENTLY AND SOMETHING THAT WE DO NEED TO ADDRESS AND DECIDE HOW ARE WE GOING TO DO IT AND GET THESE CONTRACTORS OUT OF LIMBO AND THAT SEEMS TO BE NOT JUST A SMALL THING IN THE WAR BUT MAYBE SOMETHING THAT COULD BE A MAJOR THING IN SEEING THIS TO A MORE SUCCESSFUL CONCLUSION.  IT ALSO SEEMS TO ME THAT THE QUESTION OF PRIVATIZING MILITARY DUTIES GOES TO THE HEART OF WHAT IT MEANS TO BE AN AMERICAN AND TO WHAT EXTENT WE WANT TO BELIEVE IN OUR PUBLIC INSTITUTIONS AND WHAT ROLE OUT PUBLIC INSTITUTIONS ARE SUPPOSED TO HAVE.  I’D LIKE TO THANK YOU ALL FOR WATCHING AND HOPE THAT YOU CAN CONTINUE THIS CONVERSATION IN YOUR HOMES.  THANKS AGAIN.