CHARLOTTE: GOOD MORNING AND WELCOME TO ETHICAL PERSPECTIVES ON THE NEWS.  MY NAME IS CHARLOTTE FALLON.  THIS MORNING WE’LL BE DISCUSSING WHETHER OR NOT EXTREMISM HAS CO-OPTED THE AMERICAN POLITICAL SYSTEM.  IT’S INTERESTING THAT IN THE EARLY HISTORY OF THE REPUBLIC GEORGE WASHINGTON, WORRIED ABOUT THE INFLUENCE OF WHAT HE THEN REFERRED TO AS POLITICAL FACTIONS.  HE THOUGHT THAT FACTIONS, IF THEY CONTINUED TO GROW AND EXIST WOULD SOMEHOW UNDERMINE THE NEW COUNTRY.  HE HOPED THAT OUR DIFFERENCES COULD BE AGGREGATED THROUGH COMPROMISE AND THEN CONSENSUS WOULD BE REACHED.  I DON’T KNOW WHAT HE’D THINK ABOUT TODAY.  TODAY WE’VE ALL HEARD DISCUSSIONS ABOUT RED STATES AND BLUE STATES AND IT OFTEN SEEMS AS IF THESE DETERMINATIONS ARE SEALED AND UNCHANGEABLE.  THEY’RE TALKED ABOUT ON TV ON TALK RADIO, LATE NIGHT COMEDIANS, EVERYBODY SEEMS TO GET IN THE MIX ON THESE.  SO, HAS THE CENTER BEEN LOST IN POLITICS AND HAS EXTREMISM TAKEN OVER?  ARE THESE DIVISIONS HARMFUL TO OUR COUNTRY AND OUR COMMUNITY OR ARE THEY JUST WHAT HAPPENS.  WITH ME TO DISCUSS THIS THIS MORNING ARE KRAIG PAULSEN, IOWA REPRESENTATIVE FROM DISTRICT 35, ART STAED, IOWA REPRESENTATIVE FROM DISTRICT 37 AND HOWARD SANBORN, A MOUNT MERCY COLLEGE POLITICAL SCIENTIST.  GOOD MORNING TO ALL OF YOU AND WELCOME.  WE’LL START OFF BY ASKING I’M CONSIDERABLY OLDER THAN ALL OF YOU BUT I SEEM TO REMEMBER A TIME WHEN WE DIDN’T HAVE THIS CHASM AND SO WHAT ARE THE ISSUES AND I’LL ASK KRAIG FIRST, WHAT ARE THE, WELL FIRST OF ALL IS THERE A CHASM AND SECONDLY IF THERE IS, WHAT ARE THE ISSUES THAT HAVE BROUGHT THAT TO BE?

 

KRAIG: YOU KNOW I THINK THERE’S A COUPLE OF WAYS TO ANSWER THE QUESTION.  ONE IS IF YOU LOOK AT THE 150 MEMBERS OF THE IOWA LEGISLATURE FOR EXAMPLE, YOU KNOW I ACTUALLY THINK THAT FOR THE MOST PART TAKEN AS INDIVIDUALS, WE’RE PROBABLY PRETTY REFLECTIVE OF THE POPULATION IN THE STATE OF IOWA.  I MEAN THERE’S PEOPLE THAT COME FROM ALL DIFFERENT SEGMENTS AND SO TO A LARGE EXTENT, EVERYBODY IS REPRESENTED.  I THINK IF YOU LOOK AT IT MORE FROM AN INSTITUTIONAL PERSPECTIVE AND WHAT MOVES FORWARD AND HOW ISSUES ACTUALLY GAIN ENERGY AND WHAT LEADERSHIP MAY OR MAY NOT PUSH, THERE’S NO QUESTION THAT I THINK SPECIAL INTERESTS HAVE CLEARLY A MORE POWERFUL SAY THAN OTHERS.  THE LAST THINK I’D MENTION AND THIS QUESTION I’LL ALSO TELL YOU THAT IF YOU LOOK BACK IN 2006, TWO ISSUES THAT CLEARLY WERE GRASS ROOTS ISSUES THAT PRETTY MUCH OVERPOWERED THE LEGISLATURE WERE THE EMINENT DOMAIN DEBATE AND THE TOUCH PLAY DEBATE.  NO QUESTION THOSE WERE ELECTRIC AND VOTER DRIVEN ISSUES SO YOU KNOWS IT’S NOT EXCLUSIVELY A SPECIAL INTEREST DRIVEN EVENT BUT THERE’S NO QUESTION THAT SOME OF THAT DOES COME INTO PLAY.    I ALSO WOULD SAY IT’S NOT NEAR FROM WHAT I SEE IN DES MOINES, IT’S NOT NEARLY AS EXTREME AS WHAT APPEARS TO COME OUT OF WASHINGTON D.C.

 

CHARLOTTE: ART WOULD YOU AGREE WITH THAT?

 

ART: YES, I HAVE TO AGREE FULLY WITH HIM.  I THINK THE DIFFERENCE IN THE IOWA LEGISLATURE AND THAT FROM THE NATIONAL PERSPECTIVE IS THAT, I’VE ONLY BEEN THERE ONE YEAR, THE FIRST YEAR BUT IT SEEMS TO ME THAT THE LEGISLATORS THERE DO LISTEN TO MORE THAN ONE SIDE, MORE THAN TWO SIDES, ALL THE SIDES OF AN ISSUE SO YOU HEAR THE LOBBYISTS AND MANY OF THE LOBBYISTS ARE AT ODDS WITH ONE ANOTHER AND YOU HEAR FROM THE PUBLIC AND WHAT WE DO IS TRY TO REACH A COMPROMISE, WE TRY TO LISTEN AND FIND A WAY TO FIND THE BEST POSSIBLE SOLUTION FOR ALL THE GROUPS THAT ARE INVOLVED AND I THINK THAT THAT WORKS WELL.  YOU MIGHT HEAR ABOUT A COUPLE OF SENSATIONAL BILLS THAT COME OUT THAT ARE DIVISIVE OR SOMETHING TO THAT NATURE BUT WE PASSED OVER 400 BILLS AND MOST OF THOSE WERE BASED UPON COMPROMISE AND WORKING TOGETHER AND DOING SOMETHING THAT WE THOUGHT WAS BEST FOR ALL IOWANS.  BUT WHEN YOU SEE MOST OF THE MEDIA THAT WE HAVE I THINK JUST THE SENSATIONAL THINGS ARE THE ONES THAT GET CLIPPED, THAT PEOPLE ARE ABLE TO SEE AND THEN PEOPLE LIKE TO WRITE ON THOSE BECAUSE THOSE ARE THINGS THEY WANT TO HEAR AND SO THERE ARE MANY ISSUES I THINK IN THE NATION THAT ARE REALLY IMPORTANT THINGS AND PEOPLE ARE REALLY CONCERNED ABOUT AND SOMETIMES IF YOU HAVE TWO POLARIZED SIDES ON THAT THEN IT BECOMES CONTROVERSIAL AND THAT SEEMS TO BE THE FOCUS THEN.  SEE THAT’S DIFFERENT IN THE NATIONAL VIEW RATHER THAN IN IOWA.

 

CHARLOTTE: WE NEVER USED TO SEE AT LEAST NOT IN MY MEMORY THESE NATIONAL MAPS WITH RED STATES AND BLUE STATES ON THEM.  NOW I JUST HEARD A POLITICIAN TODAY TALKING ABOUT HIS STATE OF MISSOURI BEING PURPLE WHICH SO MAYBE LOOK AT MORE COLORFUL MAPS IN THE FUTURE BUT IF WE LOOK AT THIS NATIONALLY, WHAT ARE THE ISSUES NATIONALLY THAT HAVE MADE RED STATES AND BLUE STATES?

 

WELL I THINK THE FIRST THING IS, THERE’S ALWAYS BEEN SOME REGIONALIZATION OF DEBATES AND SUCH FOR A LONG WHILE YOU HAD THE SOUTH WHICH WAS YOU KNOW HISTORICALLY REPUBLICAN AND SWITCHED TO BEING HISTORICALLY DEMOCRAT NOW AND NOT REPUBLICAN SO YOU’VE HAD THAT FOR A WHILE AND YOU COULD ARGUE IF IT’S THE MEDIA LIKE YOU PEOPLE BRING UP CERTAIN POINTS WHICH ARE MORE SENSATIONAL THAN OTHERS BUT NATIONALLY SPEAKING, I MEAN WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE DEBATES THERE ARE THINGS THAT REPUBLICANS ARE CONCERNED MORE ABOUT BE IT IMMIGRATION, BE IT TERRORISM.  THERE ARE THINGS THAT THE DEMOCRATS THAT ARE MORE CONCERNED ABOUT WHICH WOULD BE THE IRAQ WAR, HEALTH CARE AND PEOPLE SEEM TO BE EQUALLY FOCUSED ON THE ECONOMY SO THERE ARE CERTAIN THINGS THAT ARE BEHOLDEN TO EACH PARTY BUT AT THE SAME TIME EVEN THOUGH I MEAN I THINK, THE TWO GENTLEMEN TO MY LEFT MADE VERY GOOD POINTS THAT IN IOWA THE STATE LEGISLATURE THERE DOESN’T SEEM TO BE THE CONTENTIOUSNESS THAT THERE IS ON THE NATIONAL STAGE.  I THINK EVEN ON THE NATIONAL STAGE WHAT’S PLAYED UP, THERE ARE CERTAIN THINGS THAT HAVE TO BE A YES OR NO A BLACK OR WHITE RESPONSE TO.  I THINK FOR ISSUES THAT, THERE’S ROOM FOR GRAY AREAS I THINK POLITICIANS ** FOR THOSE GRAY AREAS BECAUSE IN OUR SYSTEM THAT’S WHAT COMES OUT.  WE HAVE TWO PARTIES AND POLITICIANS, CANDIDATES FOR PRESIDENT SPECIFICALLY TRY TO PLAY TO THE MIDDLE AND SO EVEN THOUGH THEY MIGHT BEND IT ONE WAY OR THE OTHER OR THE PRESS MIGHT BEND IT ONE WAY OR THE OTHER I THINK FUNDAMENTALLY THERE ISN’T AS MUCH DIFFERENCE AS WE MIGHT THINK THERE IS. 

 

CHARLOTTE: KRAIG, DO YOU THINK THAT THE PRIMARY PROCESS AND IN IOWA THE CAUCUSES THAT THEY CONTRIBUTE TO SOME POLARIZATION BECAUSE WE HEAR REPEATEDLY THAT WHICHEVER PARTY, THEY HAVE TO APPEAL TO THEIR BASE AND WHETHER THAT’S TRUE OR NOT I DON’T KNOW AND WE’LL GET HOWARD TO WEIGH IN ON THAT EVENTUALLY TOO.

 

KRAIG:  MAYBE.  I WOULD SAY THAT IF IT DOES DRIVE A DIFFERENCE IT’S MORE OF A MARGINAL IMPACT.  I DON’T SEE THAT AS A DRIVER.  I TELL YOU, AS FAR AS A FOUNDATIONAL ISSUE THAT HAS CHANGED OVER THE COURSE OF TIME THAT I THINK DRIVES IT IS CAMPAIGN FINANCE REFORM.  WE WENT IN AND IN THE POST RICHARD NIXON AREA AND WE’RE GOING TO CLEAN UP POLITICS AND PASS CAMPAIGN FINANCE REFORM AND WHAT WE ENDED UP WITH WAS CLINICAL ACTION COMMITTEES.  MORE RECENTLY WE DO CAMPAIGN FINANCE REFORM AND NOW WE END UP WITH 527'S WHERE PEOPLE LIKE ART AND MYSELF HAVE ABSOLUTELY ZERO CONTROL OVER ANY OF THAT THAT GOES ON AND THAT JUST DRIVES THOSE ISSUES.  LEADERSHIP POLITICAL ACTION COMMITTEES AT THE FEDERAL LEVEL ARE AN EXTREMELY BIG DEAL AND THEY’RE LARGELY DRIVEN BY THE FACT OF CAMPAIGN CONTRIBUTION LIMITS.  I DON’T KNOW THAT UNDOING THOSE IS THE ANSWER BUT I DEFINITELY THINK THAT THAT’S A SIGNIFICANT FACTOR IN DRIVING A MESSAGE ONE WAY OR THE OTHER. 

 

CHARLOTTE: SO MONEY HAS TO BE SOMETHING HERE.  ART?

 

ART: WELL I WOULD SAY JUST THAT IN THE CAUCUSES THAT I SEE HERE WHAT IS REALLY GOOD I THINK BECAUSE YOU HAVE INDIVIDUALS, PEOPLES OF THE COMMUNITY IN THE COMMUNITY, FAMILIES ACTUALLY GETTING TO TALK FACE TO FACE AND ASK THEIR OWN QUESTIONS.  SO YOU DON’T HAVE THAT CONTROL THAT YOU DO ON THE NATIONAL LEVEL ON THE ISSUES THAT I WOULD SAY EXTREMISTS OR PERHAPS THOSE TO THE FAR LEFT OR THE FAR RIGHT WANT TO TALK ABOUT.  YOU’RE GETTING THE REAL QUESTIONS AND THE REAL ANSWERS UP FRONT FROM REAL AMERICANS THAT GET AN OPPORTUNITY TO ASK THEM THAT SO THAT’S WHY I THINK THE CAUCUSES REALLY REPRESENT TRUE DEMOCRACY MORE SO THAN ON THE NATIONAL LEVEL WHEN YOU SEE THE MEDIA AND EVEN THE DEBATES SOMETIMES.  I THINK THE CAUCUSES ARE MUCH BETTER THAN THE DEBATES IN TERMS ON THAT.

 

CHARLOTTE: AND YOU WANT TO KEEP THOSE CAUCUSES IN IOWA SO WE’RE GOING TO TALK THE WALK HERE. 

 

THAT’S RIGHT CAUSE YOU REALLY GET A CHANCE TO ASK THE QUESTIONS THAT CONCERN YOU AND YOUR OWN COMMUNITIES.  YOU GET TO TALK ABOUT YOUR OWN HEALTH CARE AND THE STORIES ABOUT THE THINGS THAT HAVE HAPPENED TO YOU AND YOUR FAMILIES.  YOU GET TO TALK ABOUT THE REAL EDUCATIONAL EXPERIENCE OF YOUR OWN KIDS AND HOW THAT’S IMPACTED BY THINGS LIKE NO CHILD LEFT BEHIND OR HOW THAT MIGHT BE IMPACTED BY PAY FOR PERFORMANCE OR OTHER KINDS OF THINGS IN EDUCATION.  YOU DON’T JUST HAVE THE LEFT VIEW AND THE RIGHT VIEW TO THE FAR SIDE.  OTHER VIEWS LIKE GOVERNMENT DOESN’T WORK.  OK.  AND THAT WE NEED TO KEEP MORE OF OUR OWN MONEY AND SO THOSE THAT CAN BE A FAR RIGHT VIEW TO WHERE GOVERNMENT, SCALING BACK GOVERNMENT, CUTTING ALL THE TAXES, CUTTING SOCIAL PROGRAMS AND SO ON.  THERE ARE GROUPS THAT I HEAR, NATIONAL AND ON A NATIONAL RADIO, TWO PARTICULAR ON THE RADIO THAT WANT TO DO THAT AND THEN YOU’VE GOT OTHERS ON THE OTHER SIDE, THE FAR LEFT LIBERAL SIDE WANT TO DO THINGS CLOSE TO SOCIALISM.  YOU HEAR THAT AND I THINK SOMETIMES THE MEDIA OR EVEN THE NEWSPAPERS THEY LIKE TO GIVE BOTH VIEWS.  THEY’LL GIVE THE FAR LEFT AND THE FAR RIGHT AND THINK THAT BECAUSE OF THAT YOU HAVE A MODUS OF ** VIEW THAT THE PUBLIC CAN HAVE.  BUT THAT’S NOT THE CASE.  I THINK THERE ARE MORE MODERATE VIEWS AND THERE’S MORE COMPROMISE ON ALL OF THESE ISSUES THAT GET TALKED AT IN PEOPLES LIVING ROOMS AND THINGS THAT YOU DON’T GET TO HEAR FROM WATCHING NATIONAL TELEVISION OR ON NATIONAL RADIO.

 

CHARLOTTE: LET’S TALK ABOUT THE MEDIA A LITTLE BIT HOWARD BECAUSE I MEANT TO WATCH AND LISTEN A LITTLE BIT MORE YESTERDAY BUT YOU KNOW I HEARD SOMEBODY CALLING PEOPLE PINHEADS AND VARIOUS OTHER THINGS IN JUST A VERY SHORT PERIOD OF TIME AND I MEAN SURELY THIS HAS HAD TO PUSH PEOPLE TO THE EXTREMES BECAUSE IF YOU DON’T AGREE WITH ME THEN YOU’RE A PINHEAD.  IT’S NOT YOU DON’T DISAGREE WITH ME BECAUSE WE HAVE PHILOSOPHICAL DIFFERENCE HERE SO WHAT DOES RESEARCH SAY THAT THE ROLE OF THE MEDIA IS.

 

I THINK THE MEDIA DOES **.  THAT GOES WITHOUT SAYING.  A LOT OF IT IS DRIVEN BY SIMPLY THE VOTERS.  FUNDAMENTALLY THE MEDIA HAS TO PLAY TO CONSUMERS, HAS TO CREATE STORIES THAT PEOPLE ARE GOING TO WANT TO READ AND BUY AND SURF THE WEB TO FIND AND SO VOTERS DRIVE A LOT OF THIS.   THEY DRIVE THE POSITIONS OF THE CANDIDATES THEMSELVES IN THAT IF CANDIDATES, YEAH, THEY DO TAKE CERTAIN VIEWS THAT ARE DIFFERENT FROM ONE ANOTHER AND THEY HAVE THIS BALANCE BETWEEN TRYING TO FIND A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THEMSELVES AND AT THE SAME TIME TRYING TO PLAY TO THE MIDDLE AND THAT’S SOMETHING THAT’S HISTORICALLY BEEN FOUND TO BE THAT WE HAVE A TWO PARTY SYSTEM AND THE INCENTIVE THERE IS TO FIND KIND OF A COMMON MIDDLE GROUND, TO GET TO THE MIDDLE PART OF THE COUNTRY WHILE NOT LOSING YOUR IDENTITY AS A MEMBER OF YOUR PARTY.  SO THE MEDIA PLAYING UPON THAT, TRYING TO PLAY ON THOSE EXTREMES, IT MAKES SENSE IN THAT THEY’RE TRYING TO SELL NEWSPAPERS OR SELL BOOKS AND SUCH.  YOU KNOW THEY’RE GOING TO CREATE A STORY AND ONE OF THE THINGS I IN AMERICAN POLITICS CLASS THAT I’M TEACHING WE DO CANDIDATE PROJECTS WHERE I ASSIGN A GROUP OF CANDIDATE AND SO THE STUDENTS ARE PRESENTING THOSE PROJECTS AND WHAT YOU FIND IS OF COURSE ON A LOT OF THESE POSITIONS THERE’S REALLY NOT A LOT OF DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE CANDIDATES AND ALSO WHAT YOU FIND IS THERE’S A DISCONNECT BETWEEN OR DELAY BETWEEN CERTAIN POSITIONS THAT HAVE BECOME BIGGER THAT HAVE GAINED NEWSWORTHINESS OVER THE PAST FEW WEEKS AND WHEN THEY’RE PUT OUT ON, LET’S SAY THE CANDIDATES WEB PAGE SO FOR EXAMPLE IF HILARY CLINTON CAME OUT WITH HER POSITION ON SOCIAL SECURITY AND ATTACKING THE CAP, SHE’S GOING TO ATTACK HIGHER, TAX HIGHER INCOMES FOR SOCIAL SECURITY AND PEOPLE TREATED THIS AS IF IT WERE THIS BIG NEW THING THAT CAME OUT OF NOWHERE BUT IT’S BEEN ON HER WEB PAGE FOR MANY MANY MONTHS.  THE MEDIA DOES DRIVE A LOT OF THAT AND DOES SENSATIONALIZE THINGS AT TIMES BUT AT THE SAME TIME IT’S FUNDAMENTALLY AT THE CORDS, IT’S THE VOTERS THEMSELVES THAT ARE REALLY PUSHING THIS AND IT’S WHAT THEY WANT TO HEAR.  DO THEY WANT TO HEAR THAT HILARY DID REALLY BADLY AT THE DEBATE AND THEN YOU HAVE A READY MADE STORY WHEN EITHER HILARY PICKS BACK UP OR CONTINUES HER DOWNWARD SLIDE.  I THINK A LOT OF THAT GOES INTO THIS AS WELL. 

 

CHARLOTTE: KRAIG I’LL ASK YOU, WHAT HAS BEEN THE ROLE EITHER IN IOWA OR NATIONALLY IN THIS DIVIDE OF EVANGELICAL CHRISTIANS?

 

KRAIG: WELL, I’M NOT SURE I KNOW THE ANSWER TO THAT I GUESS WHAT POPPED INTO MY MIND THERE IS I THINK WITHIN THE REPUBLICAN PARTY RIGHT NOW YOU’VE GOT A REAL TENSION BETWEEN THE SOCIAL CONSERVATIVE YOU KNOW PUSHING THAT END OF THE AGENDA AND A LIBERTARIAN AGENDA.  I THINK THE PARTY CONTINUES TO BE UNIFIED TO SOME DEGREE OR TO A LARGE EXTENT AT LEAST AMONG THE BASE ON A FISCAL CONSERVATIVE MESSAGE EVEN THOUGH I DON’T THINK THERE’S ANY QUESTION THAT SOME OF OUR FEDERAL OFFICIALS HAVE SQUANDERED SOME OF THAT HIGH GROUND ON THAT ISSUE IN RECENT TIME BUT I THINK THERE’S A TENSION RIGHT NOW AS I SAY GOING ON BETWEEN THE LIBERTARIANS AND THE SOCIAL CONSERVATIVES.  I’M STILL NOT SURE HOW THAT RESOLVES ITSELF AND YOU CAN SEE IT IN THE PRESIDENTIAL DEBATES WHERE YOU’VE GOT A GUY LIKE RUDY GUILIANI AND RON PAUL TALKING VERY MUCH ON THE LIBERTARIAN SIDE AND YOU’VE GOT MORE OF A MITT ROMNEY AND MIKE HUCKABEE ON THE OTHER SIDE AND TO SOME DEGREE YOU’VE GOT FRED THOMPSON IN THE MIDDLE AT LEAST BASED ON THE POSITIONS.  THAT’S GOING TO HAVE TO RESOLVE ITSELF AND I DON’T KNOW THE ANSWER TO THAT.

 

CHARLOTTE: YEAH BECAUSE I WOULD THINK AND I DON’T KNOW BUT HOWARD MIGHT THE NUMBER OF EVANGELIC AN CHRISTIANS SORT OF NATIONALLY I MEAN IT’S NOT INSIGNIFICANT BUT AGAIN IT’S NOT AS GREAT AS WE’RE SOMETIMES LED TO BELIEVE.

 

AND THAT’S WHAT’S DRIVING A LOT OF WHAT MIKE HUCKABEE SUPPORT.  I WORK AT THE UNIVERSITY OF IOWA HAWKEYE POLL DOWN IN IOWA CITY AND YOU KNOW WHEN WE ASK PEOPLE WHO WOULD YOU SUPPORT FOR PRESIDENT MITT ROMNEY WAS THE CLEAR CHOICE BUT WHEN YOU LOOK AT EVANGELICALS I MEAN TWO TO ONE, WELL IN THE LATEST POLL TWO TO ONE BUT IN OUR POLL IT WAS PRETTY CLEAR THEY SUPPORTED MIKE HUCKABEE AND THAT’S REALLY LED TO HIS GROWTH AND SUPPORT OVER THE PAST FEW MONTHS, DRAMATICALLY OVER THE PAST FEW MONTHS SO IT IS A VERY SIZEABLE CONTINGENT YOU KNOW OF THE PARTY AND OF THE COUNTRY AS A WHOLE, THE REPUBLICAN PARTY AND THE COUNTRY AS A WHOLE.

 

CHARLOTTE: LET’S ** THESE SOCIAL ISSUES A BIT BECAUSE I THINK THOSE REALLY ARE THE THINGS THAT HAVE LED TO A LOT OF THE DIVIDE, ABORTION OBVIOUSLY, THE RIGHT TO LIFE MOVEMENT.  THEN THE GAY RIGHTS STUFF AND ALL OF THAT.  IS THERE A WAY TO HAVE ANY KIND, I MEAN POLITICS IS THE ART OF COMPROMISE, IS THERE ANY AREA FOR COMPROMISE ON THESE ISSUES ART?

 

ART: I THINK IN ALL OF THE SOCIAL ISSUES THERE’S AREA FOR COMPROMISE.  I THINK ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I SEE, SOME OF THE PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATES DOING IS THAT THEY’RE MOVING WAY LEFT OR WAY RIGHT IN TERMS OF WHAT THEY HEAR SOME OF THESE STRONG BASES WANTING SO THEY’RE ACTUALLY MOVING TOWARD THEIR BASE OR TO THE LEFT OR TO THE RIGHT.  MORE CONSERVATIVE OR MORE LIBERAL AND I THINK THAT’S A PROBLEM.  YOU KNOW I CAN SEE EVEN IN THE IMMIGRATION WITH THE IMMIGRATION ISSUE ONE SIDE WILL BE MOVING THAT IT HAS TO BE AMNESTY AND THE BORDERS WIDE OPEN AND SO ON.  AND THEREFORE THE OTHER SIDE TRIES TO PRODUCE INFORMATION THAT WE SHOULD FEAR THAT BECAUSE THERE WILL BE TERRORISTS AND SO ON BUT IN FACT OUR BORDERS FOR THE PAST 25 YEARS HAVE NOT BEEN WELL CONTROLLED AND WE HAVE 12 AND A HALF MILLION IMMIGRANTS HERE ILLEGALLY AND WE CAN’T AFFORD TO IMPRISON THEM ALL, WE CAN’T FIND THEM ALL TO DO THAT AND SOME WE COULDN’T DO THAT SO YOU CAN’T, IT ISN’T ONE OR THE OTHER.  YOU DON’T SEND THEM ALL BACK OR GIVE THEM ALL AMNESTY OR WHATEVER IT IS.  THE MODERATE VIEW IS THAT YOU HAVE TO DEAL WITH THAT IN A REAL PRACTICAL SENSE.  HOW DO YOU FIND A WAY TO NOT DESTROY OUR ECONOMY BY REMOVING YOU KNOW GETTING THOSE PEOPLE SOMEHOW LEGALLY INTO THE WORKFORCE.  HOW DO YOU DO THAT OVER TIME, DO THEY HAVE TO PAY FINES, GO THROUGH THE PROCESS AND THEN WHAT CAN WE DO NOW TO MAKE OUR BORDERS SAFER AND ALL THE OTHER THINGS.  SO THE HARDER ISSUES ACTUALLY ARE THE COMPROMISE.  TO REALLY GET TOGETHER AND WORK ON THAT TO SOMETHING THAT IS PRACTICAL AND THAT WE CAN REALLY DO.  I SEE THAT IN MANY OF THE ISSUES WHERE THEY JUST GO ONE SIDE OR THE OTHER TO GET THE BASE STIRRED UP AND I DON’T THINK THAT’S GOOD.

 

CHARLOTTE: THE MEDIA PLAYING INTO THAT BECAUSE THE MEDIA IS EITHER ON ONE EXTREME OR THE OTHER AND THEN THERE’S ALL THIS LOBBYING MONEY AND THEY’RE PROMOTING ONE SIDE OR THE OTHER SO HOW DO WE BRIDGE THAT DIVIDE KRAIG?

 

KRAIG: YOU KNOW IT’S INTERESTING.  THAT REALLY IS AN INTERESTING SUBJECT AND IT’S ONE THAT AS I’VE HAD THE OPPORTUNITY TO GO TALK WITH OTHER LEGISLATORS FROM OTHER STATES.  NOT THAT IOWA’S PERFECT.  THAT’S NOT WHAT I’M ARGUING.  WE CAN ALWAYS DO BETTER BUT I WILL TELL YOU IT’S JUST STUNNING WHAT GOES ON IN SOME OTHER STATES AND JUST THE OBSCENE, I MEAN ONE STATE BEING ILLINOIS I MEAN IT’S PAY FOR PLAY.  DURING SESSION, YOU WANT TO TALK TO THIS LEGISLATOR, YOU KNOW HOW MANY CAMPAIGN, I MEAN I JUST FIND THAT STUNNING. 

 

CHARLOTTE: ILLINOIS HAS A LONG HISTORY.

 

KRAIG: YEAH, ILLINOIS DOES HAVE A LITTLE BIT OF HISTORY.  THANK GOODNESS, I MEAN WE DON’T HAVE ANYTHING LIKE THAT IN IOWA.  I MEAN FIRST OF ALL IT’S ILLEGAL AND TO MY KNOWLEDGE I HAVE YET TO BE CHALLENGED TO BREAK THE LAW ON THAT ISSUE NOR HAVE I EVER SEEN ANYBODY BREAK THE LAW ON THAT ISSUE SO I THINK THAT’S SOMETHING THAT IOWANS CAN BE PLEASED ABOUT.  THERE’S NO QUESTION THAT LOBBYING HAS AN IMPACT AND I DON’T KNOW IF IT HAS THE IMPACT THAT YOU WERE THINKING OF THAT THERE.  I THINK IT MORE HAS THE IMPACT OF THOSE GROUPS THAT CAN AFFORD TO HAVE LOBBYISTS OR MULTIPLE LOBBYISTS OR MAYBE A FULL TIME LOBBYIST AND A CONTRACT LOBBYIST AND CAN BRING IN PEOPLE WHEN THEY NEED THEM TO PULL US OUT OF THE CHAMBER TO TALK TO US.  THEY HAVE AN UPPER HAND AND IT’S NOT NECESSARILY BECAUSE OF DIRECT MONEY COMING TO US BUT IT’S BECAUSE THEY KNOW HOW AND HAVE THE ABILITY TO MAKE THEMSELVES IMMEDIATELY AVAILABLE TO US.  THAT’S SOMETHING THAT THE AVERAGE PERSON WALKING DOWN THE STREET DOESN’T HAVE THE TIME, THE MONEY OR THE INCLINATION TO DO.  THAT’S REALLY WHERE I THINK THEY GET THEIR UPPER HAND IN IOWA. 

I THINK THAT ACTUALLY GOING TO THE POINT THAT BOTH OF YOU MADE ABOUT MONEY AND TIME THAT PEOPLE HAVE AND VOTERS DON’T HAVE AS A REALLY ** SET OF ISSUES AND ONE OF THE THINGS YOU FIND IS THAT IT’S TOUGH FOR VOTERS TO DISCERN WHAT CANDIDATE STANDS FOR WHAT POSITION AND I THINK CANDIDATES THEN HAVE AN INCENTIVE TO BLEND TOGETHER IN THE MIDDLE YOU KNOW SO FOR EXAMPLE, ON THE TOPIC OF IMMIGRATION WHICH IS GOING TO BE A PRETTY BIG TOPIC COME ELECTION DAY NEXT YEAR, YOU KNOW WHEN YOU KIND OF PUT THE POSITIONS OUT THERE AND YOU SAY WELL, WHAT TENDS TO BE THE DEBATE AND ON ONE HAND IF YOU LOOK AT THE MEDIA YOU MIGHT SAY THAT IT’S PEOPLE GRANTING AMNESTY OR PEOPLE YOU KNOW SHORING UP THE BORDERS OR WHATEVER BUT REALLY WHEN, NOT ONLY DO YOU LOOK AT WHAT PEOPLE THINK, VOTERS, AS PART OF THE HAWKEYE POLL BUT WHEN YOU ACTUALLY LOOK AT CANDIDATE POSITIONS THEY TEND TO BE IN THAT GRAY AREA YOU KNOW BECAUSE IT’S REALLY HARD TO COME DOWN ON ONE SIDE OR THE OTHER WITHOUT YOU KNOW ** ANY RULES OF PRACTICALITY.  BUT I THINK THERE ARE ISSUES THAT DO STAND OUT WHERE THERE HAS TO BE EITHER A YES OR NO AS MUCH AS RUDY GUILIANI WANTS TO YOU KNOW FUDGE THE LINE ON HIS VIEWS ON ABORTION BETWEEN PRO LIFE OR PRO CHOICE ULTIMATELY YOU HAVE TO DECIDE PRO LIFE OR PRO CHOICE AND I THINK THOSE ARE THE ISSUES THAT REALLY STIR UP THE POT.  AN ISSUE LIKE IMMIGRATION I THINK ONE OF THE THINGS YOU LOOK AT CANDIDATES EVEN WITH MITT ROMNEY THAT’S COME OUT VERY RECENTLY AND TAKEN A HARD LINE REALLY IS FUNDAMENTAL ISSUE ISN’T VERY DIFFERENT THAN A LOT OF THE OTHER CANDIDATES WHICH IS TO SHORE UP THE BORDERS AND TO FIGURE OUT A WAY YOU KNOW TO PRACTICALLY KEEP CITIZENS HERE OR ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS HERE AND TURN THEM INTO CITIZENS AT SOME POINT DOWN THE ROAD WITH FINES AND SUCH SO I MEAN YOU THINK THERE’S THIS BALANCE WITH VOTERS BECAUSE YOU HAVE THIS MELDING OF VIEWS ON THESE CANDIDATES WHERE FOR THE MOST PART THEY REALLY CAN’T CHOOSE A SIDE.  IT’S EASY FOR THEM TO KIND OF MIX IN THE GRAY AREA AND SO VOTERS HAVE TO SAY TO THEMSELVES, WELL, WHAT’S IMPORTANT TO US AND THOSE REALLY CONTROVERSIAL ISSUES KIND OF STAND OUT BECAUSE THOSE ARE THE THINGS WE HAVE TO TAKE A CLEAR YES OR A CLEAR NO.

 

I WOULD JUST SAY THOUGH TOO THAT THE REALLY IMPORTANT ISSUES THAT FAMILIES SHARE, THAT WE ALL SHARE THEY’RE VERY MUCH IN COMMON AND WHEN CANDIDATES TALK WITH INDIVIDUALS AND WHEN I DO THAT DOOR TO DOOR WHEN I KNOCK WITH INDIVIDUALS YOU FIND OUT THAT WE SHARE MOST OF THE SAME VIEWS, THAT WE WANT OUR FAMILIES TO HAVE A SAFE ENVIRONMENT AND A SAFE NEIGHBORHOOD, WE WANT THEM TO HAVE ACCESS TO GOOD SCHOOLS AND TO DO WELL.  WE WANT TO HAVE HEALTH CARE INSURANCE AND BE PROVIDED FOR AFTER WE’VE RETIRED AND THOSE KIND OF THINGS TO BE ABLE TO MAKE A GOOD STANDARD OF LIVING AND WE ALL WANT THAT.  WE ALL WANT TO BE ABLE TO PRACTICE OUR OWN RELIGION AND FEEL FREE AND SAFE IN OUR COMMUNITIES.  THOSE ARE USUALLY THE KEY ISSUES IN THINGS IN MOST OF THE THINGS THAT WE DEAL WITH ARE ABOUT AND I THINK THAT THE CANDIDATES COMING OUT HERE AND THE CAUCUSES IS MUCH BETTER THAN READING THE HEADLINES IN THE NEWSPAPERS AND FIND OUT WHERE THEIR STANCES ARE BUT TO GET ONE ON ONE WITH THEM, WHAT THEY BELIEVE AND TO LISTEN TO THE VOTERS.  I THINK THAT’S IMPORTANT TOO IN THE LEGISLATURE AS WELL, I THINK THAT’S WHY THE IOWA LEGISLATURE WORKS BETTER THAN THE NATIONAL CONGRESS IS BECAUSE YOU’RE CLOSER TO PEOPLE, YOU GET TO TALK TO PEOPLE AND LISTEN TO THEM AND YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT THEIR CONCERNS ARE.

 

CHARLOTTE: WELL IT SEEMS TO BE THAT IT IS THE STATES THAT ARE ACTUALLY MOVING FORWARD ON A VARIETY OF THINGS, HEALTH CARE AND IMMIGRATION, OF VARIOUS SORTS AND A WHOLE VARIETY OF THINGS THAT THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT DOES SEEM TO BECOME MUCH MUCH TOO DIVIDED TO DEAL WITH A LOT OF THESE ISSUES.  BUT HOW DO WE GET OVER ON A NATIONAL LEVEL.  DOES THIS ABORTION DIVIDE JUST ALWAYS GOING TO BE?

 

I DON’T SEE THAT GOING, IT’S A PHILOSOPHICAL QUESTION RIGHT NOW AND YOU’RE HERE OR YOU’RE THERE AS YOU WERE SAYING. 

 

CHARLOTTE: HOW CAN IT BE MADE OR CAN IT, CAN IT BE MADE LESS OF THIS EMOTIONAL, I DON’T EVEN KNOW HOW TO DESCRIBE IT, BUT THIS US VERSUS THEM KIND OF DEBATE OR CAN IT NOT, IT’S JUST THE NATURE OF THE ISSUE.

 

YOU KNOW, SPEAKING OF THAT ISSUE AND OTHERS, I MEAN THAT IS AN EXTREMELY PERSONAL ISSUE.  WHEN YOU HAVE SOMETHING THAT PERSONAL, IT’S GOING TO END UP BEING EMOTIONAL.  I MEAN THERE’S A COUPLE OF THINGS THAT LEND THEMSELVES TO THAT.  WHAT MAKES THIS ONE PROBABLY UNIQUE IS THAT IT’S REALLY RELATIVELY AN EVEN DIVIDE ON WHERE THINGS ARE SO THAT MAKES IT DIFFERENT.  IF YOU LOOK AT, AGAIN I’LL GO BACK TO THE EMINENT DOMAIN BILL.  I MEAN THAT WAS EVERY BIT AS PERSONAL AND EVERY BIT AS EMOTIONAL BUT 85% OF THE ELECTORATE WAS ON THE SAME SIDE OF THAT ISSUE SO THAT GOES RIGHT ON THROUGH.  I THINK THAT’S WHAT’S DIFFERENT BUT THERE’S ALWAYS A PERSONAL EMOTIONAL ISSUE OUT THERE.  THIS ONE JUST HAS SOME UNIQUE QUALITIES ABOUT IT. 

 

CHARLOTTE: HAVE WE LOST THE ABILITY TO RESPECT THOSE WITH WHOM WE DIFFER?  THAT PEOPLE CAN HAVE, PEOPLE OF GOOD WILL CAN DIFFER AND HAVE HONEST PHILOSOPHICAL DIFFERENCES ABOUT VERY DIFFICULT ISSUES SUCH AS ABORTION.  BUT HAVE WE LOST THE ABILITY TO RESPECT THE FACT THAT PEOPLE CAN DIFFER AND STILL

 

I THINK IT’S DEPENDING ON WHERE YOU’RE LOOKING, ARE YOU LOOKING AT THE VOTERS, ARE YOU SAYING PEOPLE IN GENERAL CAN’T GET ALONG OR ARE YOU LOOKING AT PEOPLE IN OUR LIFE STATIONS, ARE THOSE THE PEOPLE THAT CAN’T GET ALONG AND I THINK YOU FIND THAT PEOPLE IN THE POPULATION, THE VOTERS, I DON’T THINK THINGS HAVE CHANGED THAT MUCH, I MEAN MORE ANECDOTAL THAN ANYTHING ELSE.  I DON’T THINK IT MAKES MUCH DIFFERENCE.  WHAT YOU HEAR MORE IS ON CAPITAL HILL THESE DAYS YOU KNOW AND THAT MAY BE DRIVING A LOT OF THINGS.  THE CONTENTIOUSNESS IS UP THERE AND MAYBE THAT’S DRIVING A LOT OF THE MASS DEBATES BECAUSE YOU SEE LESS CONGENIALITY AND COMPROMISE BETWEEN THE REPRESENTATIVES AND SENATORS IN WASHINGTON.

 

I ALWAYS WONDER ABOUT THAT THOUGH, IS IT REALLY DIFFERENT?  I REMEMBER A STORY WHERE IT WAS IN THE, I WANT TO SAY IT WAS IN THE 1860'S DURING THE LINCOLN ADMINISTRATION, NOT TO MENTION YOU DON’T HAVE TO GO INTO THE LINCOLN DOUGLAS DEBATES AND SOME OF THOSE CAMPAIGN MATERIALS THAT WOULD MAKE SOME OF THOSE THINGS HAPPEN TODAY SEEM LIKE KIDS PLAY BUT ON THE FLOOR OF THE UNITED STATES SENATE THEY GOT INTO A DEBATE, TWO SENATORS AND ONE OF THEM PULLED A GUN ON THE OTHER ONE.  WHAT’S DIFFERENT IS THAT IT TOOK HOW MANY DAYS FOR THAT PIECE OF INFORMATION TO GET BACK HOME IN 1860, WHATEVER.  TODAY, IT’S THERE IN, HOW LONG DOES IT TAKE YOU TO UPLOAD IT, 10 SECONDS, I SUPPOSE IT DEPENDS ON HOW EFFICIENT YOU ARE.  I DON’T THINK THAT WE AS A SOCIETY OR AS AN ELECTORATE HAVE NECESSARILY FIGURED OUT HOW TO DEAL WITH THE ENHANCED COMMUNICATIONS ABILITY AND THEN ONCE WE KIND OF GET OUR ARMS AROUND SOMETHING, I MEAN THEY’VE TOTALLY CHANGED AGAIN.  BLOGS WHEN I FIRST RAN IN 2002 BLOGS WEREN’T EVEN I DON’T EVEN REMEMBER SOMEONE TALKING ABOUT THOSE.  NOW, YOU KNOW THEY’RE A BIG PART.  I CAN REMEMBER MY FIRST INTERNET CONNECTION.  ALL THOSE THINGS JUST CHANGE THE WHOLE WORLD AND WE NO LONGER WITH THE LINCOLN DOUGLAS DEBATES, YOU KNOW BETTER THAN I WHAT THEY GO SEVERAL HOURS, I MEAN MULTIPLE HOURS.  I DON’T KNOW TOO MANY PEOPLE WHO WOULD WANT TO SIT AROUND AND LISTEN TO ART AND I DEBATE YOU KNOW ONE ISSUE OR A HUNDRED ISSUES FOR FOUR OR FIVE HOURS.  WE MIGHT ENJOY IT BUT I DON’T KNOW IF ANYBODY ELSE WOULD SO I’M NOT SURE HAS THE DIALOG ACTUALLY CHANGED OR JUST THE FLOW OF INFORMATION AS A RESULT OF THAT DIALOG CHANGED.  IT SEEMS TO ME THAT’S PART OF IT.

 

CHARLOTTE: WELL WE’LL HAVE TO END IT THERE AS WE’RE RUNNING OUT OF TIME BUT I WANT TO THANK YOU ALL FOR JOINING ME THIS MORNING AND THANK YOU FOR WATCHING AND PLEASE JOIN US AGAIN NEXT SUNDAY MORNING.