PETER: GOOD MORNING AND WELCOME TO ETHICAL PERSPECTIVES ON THE NEWS.  MY NAME IS PETER WELCH AND I’M THE MODERATOR FOR THIS MORNINGS PROGRAM.  THIS MORNING WE’D LIKE TO VISIT ABOUT THE CONTROL OF GUN SALES AND SOME OF THE ARGUMENTS FOR AND AGAINST THE REGULATION OF GUNS.  WITH US FIRST OF ALL THIS MORNING IS MR ROGER HOWE WHO IS THE OWNER OF L & R ARMS EXCHANGE IN DURANT IOWA.  NEXT WITH US IS MS AMANDA HUMPHREY WHO IS A PROFESSOR OF CRIMINAL JUSTICE AT MT MERCY COLLEGE.  ROUNDING OUT OUR PANEL THIS MORNING IS MR NICK MAYBANKS WHO IS AN ASSISTANT LINN COUNTY ATTORNEY HERE IN CEDAR RAPIDS.  AS A BEGINNING SPOT ON THIS ISSUE OF DISCUSSION THIS MORNING WHAT KIND OF REGULATIONS ARE CURRENTLY IN PLACE REGARDING THE BUYING OF SHOTGUNS, RIFLES AND HANDGUNS?  WOULD ONE OF YOU CARE TO START OFF A LITTLE BIT ON THAT?

 

ROGER:  WELL IT’S A FEDERAL REGULATION, YOU MUST BE 18 YEARS OF AGE, A MINIMUM OF 18 YEARS OF AGE TO PURCHASE A RIFLE OR A SHOTGUN AND AT CURRENT TIME THERE IS ALSO A SYSTEM IN EFFECT THE NATIONAL INSTANT CHECK SYSTEM KNOWN AS NICS THAT THE DEALER WILL ACTUALLY HAVE THE INDIVIDUAL FILL OUT THE FORM, FEDERAL FORM 1173 AND THEN THEY’LL GO AHEAD AND CALL IT IN TO THE NATIONAL INSTANT CHECK SYSTEM AND THE FBI, THEY ARE ACTUALLY THE ONES THAT CONDUCT THE BACKGROUND CHECK BASED UPON THE INFORMATION PROVIDED ON THE FORM AND THEY WILL GIVE EITHER AN APPROVED, DENIED OR DELAY STATUS.  DENY WOULD BE OBVIOUSLY THEY DID NOT PASS THE CHECK, THERE’S SOMETHING IN THEIR BACKGROUND THAT WOULD PREVENT THEM FROM BUYING, LEGALLY BUYING A FIREARM AND A DELAY COULD INDICATE THERE’S SOMETHING THEY NEED TO GET GREATER CLARIFICATION ON OR IF THEY HAPPEN TO HAVE A VERY COMMON NAME THAT THEY NEED TO CLARIFY OR THEY THIS JOHN SMITH OR THAT JOHN SMITH AND IF THEY GET AN APPROVED IT MEANS THEY FIND NOTHING OF CONCERN IN THEIR BACKGROUND AND THEY ARE THEN AUTHORIZED TO GO AHEAD AND PURCHASE THE WEAPON.

 

PETER: IS THERE A TIME FRAME INVOLVED MINIMUM OR MAXIMUM IN THIS?

 

ROGER:  IF THEY GET AN APPROVED INITIALLY RIGHT THERE AT THE TIME OF THE PHONE IN THEY CAN GO AHEAD AND LEAVE WITH THE FIREARM AT THAT TIME FROM THE PREMISE OF THE DEALERSHIP.  IF THEY GET A DELAY STATUS THE FBI HAS A 3 WORKING DAY POLICY THAT THEY HAVE TIME TO GO AHEAD AND DO THEIR BACKGROUND CHECK IN GREATER DETAIL AND GET BACK INFORMATION FROM LOCAL AUTHORITIES TO ENSURE THAT THIS INDIVIDUAL IS AUTHORIZED TO GO AHEAD AND PURCHASE A FIREARM.  IF IT’S A DENY STATUS, THE INDIVIDUAL IS NOT ONLY DENIED FROM PURCHASING THAT FIREARM BUT THEN THE FBI WILL REQUIRE GREATER INFORMATION TO ACTUALLY GO AHEAD AND PURSUE THIS INDIVIDUAL AND MAKE SURE THAT THEY DON’T ALREADY HAVE ANY FIREARMS IN THEIR POSSESSION.

PETER: NICK, FOR LINN COUNTY CAN YOU GIVE A COUPLE OF DETAILS ABOUT WHAT SOMEBODY WOULD DO IF THEY WERE GOING TO DO SOMETHING HERE ON THAT WITH PARTICULARLY AT THE SHERIFFS OFFICE?

 

NICK: IN LINN COUNTY IF YOU DESIRE TO BE IN POSSESSION OF A HANDGUN YOU HAVE TO GET IT CLEARED WITH OUR SHERIFF, SHERIFF ZELLER AND FROM WHAT I CAN TELL YOU FROM WHAT I KNOW IT USUALLY INVOLVES, IT COULD INVOLVE A PERSONAL INTERVIEW WITH SHERIFF ZELLER OR ONE OF HIS REPRESENTATIVES AT LEAST.

 

PETER: IT JUST SO HAPPENS I HAVE MINE FOR YOU THIS MORNING.

 

IOWA IS WHAT’S CALLED A MAY ISSUE STATE MEANING THAT DISCRETION LIES WITHIN THE SUB DIVISIONS OF THE GOVERNMENT IN IOWAS CASE THE COUNTIES ON WHETHER TO ISSUE A GUN PERMIT SO YOU’D BETTER BE IN GOOD WITH SHERIFF ZELLER IF YOU WANT TO HAVE ONE OF THOSE.

 

PETER: OK AND ARE THERE DIFFERENT RULES REGARDING PISTOLS OR REVOLVERS VERSUS A HUNTING RIFLE OR A SHOTGUN?  IS IT EASIER TO GET A SHOTGUN OR A RIFLE THAN A HANDGUN OR ANY OF THAT?

 

ROGER:  WELL AGAIN, AS MENTIONED YOU HAVE TO HAVE A PERMIT TO BE ABLE TO PURCHASE A HANDGUN AND YOU ALSO MUST BE 21 YEARS OF AGE.  AT THE TIME THAT THE PERMIT IS APPLIED FOR AT THE SHERIFFS DEPARTMENT THEY WILL GO AHEAD AND CONDUCT THE SIMILAR TO FBI BACKGROUND CHECK AT THAT TIME TO CONFIRM THAT THE INDIVIDUAL IS A LAW ABIDING INDIVIDUAL AND IS AUTHORIZED TO GO AHEAD AND GET A PERMIT.  THAT PERMIT MUST BE IN THE POSSESSION OF THE INTENDED PURCHASER BEFORE THEY CAN PURCHASE A HANDGUN.  THERE’S NO OPTION OF CALLING IN ON THE FBI BACKGROUND CHECK FOR THE DEALER, THEY MUST HAVE THE IOWA HANDGUN PERMIT TO BE ABLE TO BUY A REVOLVER OR A PISTOL BUT FOR THE RIFLES AND SHOTGUNS THEY CAN JUST SIMPLY BE CALLED IN HOWEVER I POINT OUT THAT IF THEY HAPPEN TO, IF THE INDIVIDUAL HAPPENS TO HAVE ONE OF THE PERMITS AS YOU DEMONSTRATED THAT YOU HAVE YOU CAN USE THAT AS A PURCHASING DEVICE IN LIEU OF BEING CALLED IN ON THE FBI BACKGROUND CHECK OR THE NEXT SYSTEM AT THE TIME OF THE PURCHASE FROM THE INDIVIDUAL DEALER.  THEY CAN, THE CARD IS REQUIRED FOR HANDGUNS AND IT’S OPTIONAL FOR THE LONG GUNS.  YOU CAN EITHER HAVE THE CARD OR BE CALLED IN.

 

PETER: I SEE.  NICK, ISN’T THERE A DIFFERENT STANDARD INVOLVED WITH CARRYING A CONCEALED GUN VERSUS A PERMIT TO OWN ONE? 

 

NICK: YES THERE IS AND THERE ARE LAWS THAT PARTICULARLY APPLY TO WHEN YOU CAN CARRY A CONCEALED HANDGUN, MAINLY THAT YOU HAVE TO HAVE A PERMIT FIRST AND FOREMOST.  THE LAWS ARE DIFFERENT STATE BY STATE.  SOME STATES YOU CAN CARRY OPEN ARMS, OTHER STATES YOU HAVE TO CARRY THEM, YOU CAN CARRY THEM BUT THEY HAVE TO BE SECURED.  THERE’S A LOT OF DIFFERENCES IN THE LAWS IN RESPECT TO WHICH JURISDICTION YOU MIGHT BE IN.

 

PETER: AMANDA, A LOT OF PEOPLE THINK THAT REGULATING SALES OF GUNS IS GOING TO RESULT IN LOWER CRIMINALITY IF YOU WILL IN SOCIETY.  ARE YOU FAMILIAR OR HAS IT EVER REALLY BEEN PROVEN OUT TO YOUR KNOWLEDGE?

 

AMANDA: CERTAINLY WE DO KNOW THAT THERE IS SOME EVIDENCE THAT WILL INDICATE PARTICULARLY ON ENFORCEMENT OF THE CURRENT LAW AND REGULATIONS IN TERMS OF WHO CAN PURCHASE A GUN AND HOW THAT PURCHASE TAKES PLACE AND MAKING SURE THAT BACKGROUND CHECKS ARE COMPLETED.  THE REAL PROBLEM THAT WE COME TO WHEN IT COMES TO A DISCUSSION OF GUNS AND HOW THEY RELATE TO CRIME IS FIRST OF ALL IT’S A HANDGUN THAT TENDS TO BE THE GUN THAT WE FIND TO BE USED MOST OFTEN IN CRIMINAL OFFENCES.  THOSE HANDGUNS ARE GETTING INTO THE HANDS OF THE PEOPLE USING THEM THROUGH LESS THAN LEGITIMATE WAYS.  IT’S NOT THE PERSON WHO’S VISITING THE STORE AND GOING TO PURCHASE A GUN LEGALLY THAT IS THE REAL CAUSE OF CONCERN FROM A CRIMINAL JUSTICE STANDPOINT IN TERMS OF THEM USING THAT GUN TO COMMIT A CRIME.  THEY CERTAINLY MAY DO THAT BUT THEY ARE NOT THE ONES MOST LIKELY TO DO THAT AND SO WE FIND THAT WHILE REGULATIONS CERTAINLY HELPS, IT’S REALLY THE ENFORCEMENT AND THE CAREFUL SCRUTINY THAT MAKES SURE THAT DEALERS ARE FOLLOWING THE LAWS THAT ARE IN PLACE TO MAKE SURE OUR INDIVIDUALS THAT ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO GET GUNS GET THOSE AND REALLY WE TALK ABOUT THE SECONDARY MARKETS IN TERMS OF GUN DEALERSHIP THAT ARE MORE OF OUR PROBLEM AREAS IN TERMS OF CRIMINALS OR POTENTIAL CRIMINALS GETTING THEIR HANDS ON THE GUN WHEN THEY’RE NOT LEGALLY SUPPOSED TO.

 

PETER: WELL THIS BRINGS UP THE POINT ABOUT WHETHER YOU’VE GOT AN AUTHORIZED DEALER WHO’S GOT A SEPARATE STOREFRONT VERSUS A SWAP MEET OR A DEALER SHOW.  HAVE YOU SEEN THAT THERE’S BEEN A TIGHTENING UP OF THE CONTROL OF GUNS AT THE SWAP MEET OR DEALER TYPE SHOWS?

 

ROGER:  WELL THE BRADY LAW THAT WAS PASSED BACK IN 1994 ACTUALLY CURTAILED A LOT OF THE WHAT THEY REFERRED TO AS THE GARAGE OR BASEMENT DEALERS.  YOU HAD TO ACTUALLY INDICATE AND PROVE THAT YOU ACTUALLY HAD A STOREFRONT TO QUALIFY AS A DEALER.  THE NUMBER OF DEALERS LICENSES AT THAT TIME WERE GREATLY DIMINISHED AND INDIVIDUALS WHO ALREADY HAD LICENSES WERE NOT NECESSARILY RENEWED.  INDIVIDUALS THAT DID MEET ALL THE CRITERIA WERE ALLOWED TO GO AHEAD AND CONTINUE CONDUCTING BUSINESS.  AS FOR THE SWAP MEETS OR THE GUN SHOWS, THERE ARE LICENSED DEALERS WHO ATTEND THOSE SHOWS ARE REQUIRED TO PERFORM THE SAME BACKGROUND CHECKS THERE THAT THEY DO AT THEIR STORES SO THERE’S REALLY NO DIFFERENCE THERE HOWEVER IT’S NOT A REQUIREMENT THAT EVERYONE THAT SETS UP AT A SHOW BE A DEALER.  A PRIVATE INDIVIDUAL IF THEY WANT TO SELL OF THEIR PERSONAL FIREARM COLLECTION THEN THAT’S AUTHORIZED HOWEVER IF THE ATF WERE TO DISCOVER THAT AN INDIVIDUAL IS ENGAGING IN CONTINUOUS SALE OR DISPOSAL OF FIREARMS OR THE TRADE OF FIREARMS AND DO NOT HAVE A FEDERAL FIREARMS LICENSE THEN THEY ARE IN VIOLATION OF FEDERAL LAW. 

 

PETER: AMANDA IF I WERE TO POSE THE QUESTION ABOUT FOR EXAMPLE THE KIDS THAT COMMITTED THE KILLING AT COLUMBINE, NONE OF THEM HAD PURCHASED WEAPONS THEMSELVES BUT YET THEY FOUND A WAY TO OBTAIN THEM THROUGH LESS THAN GOOD SUPERVISION OF EITHER ADULTS OR OTHER UNSCRUPULOUS CHARACTERS ISN’T THAT THE CASE?

 

AMANDA: THAT IS THE CASE AND THAT’S ONE OF THE SORT OF LOOP HOLES IN A DISCUSSION OF GUN LAWS BECAUSE IT’S THE INDIVIDUALS WHO GET THE GUNS WITHOUT FOLLOWING THE LAW AND THE GUN LAW THAT’S IN PLACE THAT REALLY AGAIN ARE THE PROBLEM.  WE KNOW THAT MOST FIREARM RELATED VIOLENCE HAPPENS IN JUVENILES AND YOUNG ADULTS AND MOST OF THEM ARE GETTING THEIR GUN OBVIOUSLY THROUGH ILLEGAL MEANS OR LESS THAN LEGITIMATE MEANS MEANING THEY GET IT FROM FAMILY MEMBERS OR THEY HAVE ACCESS TO IT FROM THOSE AVENUES.  THEY DON’T GET IT BY GETTING IT THROUGH THE CURRENT LEGAL STANDARDS THAT ARE REQUIRED TO ACTUALLY PURCHASE THE GUN. 

 

PETER: AND NICK, I KNOW THAT THERE’S ALSO A CORRELATION BETWEEN PEOPLE THAT ARE THEY DON’T WANT TO GIVE THEM GUN PERMITS OR GUN SALES IF THERE’S A HISTORY OF ABUSE OF DRUGS OR ALCOHOL AND OTHER LEGAL THINGS THAT ARE ASSAULT, ISN’T THAT THE CASE?

 

NICK: YEAH.  CERTAINLY YOU WANT TO KEEP THOSE GUNS OUT OF THOSE PEOPLES HANDS.  TALK ABOUT COLUMBINE AND TRAGEDIES LIKE THAT AND I GUESS THE WAY I LOOK AT IT IS THAT THOSE TRAGEDIES HAVE ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH THE CURRENT GUN LAWS AND WHETHER THEY’RE TOO STRICT OR WHETHER THEY NEED TO BE LOOSENED.  WHAT THEY HAVE TO DO WITH IS THE FACT THAT THERE’S SOME SEVERELY MENTALLY ILL PEOPLE OUT THERE, THEY CAN GET THEIR HANDS ON GUNS.  SPEAKING FROM A LAW ENFORCEMENT PERSPECTIVE, I DON’T REMEMBER THE LAST TIME THAT WE WERE ABLE TO ACTUALLY TRACK A GUN TO THE PERSON WHO USED IT IN THE KILLING AND SOLVED THE CRIME THAT WAY.  MOST OF THE CRIMES ARE COMMITTED BY ILLICIT GUNS ON THE MARKET AND A LOT OF THE GUN REGULATIONS THAT WE SEE NOW ACTUALLY EXIST AND ONLY MAKE IT MORE ARDUOUS FOR LAW ABIDING CITIZENS TO OBTAIN GUNS WHEN YOU LOOK AT IT BUT FROM YOUR PERSPECTIVE WHAT YOU ASKED ABOUT MENTALLY ILL PEOPLE, PEOPLE SUBJECT TO DOMESTIC ABUSE, NO CONTACT ORDERS, PEOPLE WITH DOMESTIC ABUSE CONVICTIONS, THOSE PEOPLE ARE PROHIBITED BY LAW FROM POSSESSING GUNS AND I THINK AS A SAFETY MEASURE YOU DON’T WANT TO PUT GUNS INTO HIGH RISK PEOPLES HANDS LEGALLY SO IT MAKES SENSE.

 

PETER: I DID SOME RESEARCH AND THE USA TODAY POSED A QUESTION TO ITS READERS TO TALK ABOUT THE SECOND AMENDMENT RIGHT AND THE QUESTION THEY POSED WAS DID THE SECOND AMENDMENT GIVE THEM THE RIGHT TO HAVE PERSONAL FIREARMS IN THEIR HOME AND THE RESULT WAS A RESOUNDING 97% SAID THEY FELT IT DID.  DOES THAT SURPRISE YOU AT ALL?

 

IT DOESN’T SURPRISE ME.  IF YOU ASKED MOST PEOPLE WHAT THE SECOND AMENDMENT SAID THEY PROBABLY WOULDN’T BE ABLE TO TELL YOU WHAT IT SAID EITHER SO I MEAN THE WORDING OF THE SECOND AMENDMENT HAS TO DO WITH A WELL REGULATED MILITIA AND I THINK PEOPLE DON’T UNDERSTAND WHAT THAT MEANS.

 

BUT CERTAINLY WE’VE ALL VIEWED THE RIGHT TO BEAR ARMS AS AN INDIVIDUAL RIGHT BECAUSE MOST OF THE ARMS WE SEE OUT THERE PEOPLE POSSESS FOR HUNTING OR MERE SELF DEFENSE PURPOSES WITH THE OCCASIONAL COLLECTOR ALONG THE WAY.  IF WE WERE ACTUALLY TO HAVE A COUNTRY RIGHT NOW WHERE THE ONLY WAY YOU COULD BEAR ARMS WERE IF YOU WERE IN A MILITIA, YOU WOULDN’T HAVE A LOT OF GUNS.  THERE’S NOT A LOT OF MILITIAS AROUND THAT I KNOW OF. 

 

PETER: WELL IT JUST SO HAPPENS THAT SINCE YOU MENTIONED THE SECOND AMENDMENT LANGUAGE, HERE IT IS.  THE SECOND AMENDMENT SAYS A WELL REGULATED MILITIA BEING NECESSARY TO THE SECURITY OF A FREE STATE, THE RIGHT OF THE PEOPLE TO KEEP AND BEAR ARMS SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED.  AMANDA A LOT OF PEOPLE, THERE’S A SCHOOL OF THOUGHT OUT THERE THAT THIS MEANS THE RIGHT OF THE PEOPLE AS A SOCIETY AND AS A WHOLE TO BEAR ARMS AND BE PROTECTED AND MAYBE NOT THE RIGHT OF THE INDIVIDUAL.  ARE BOTH OF THOSE

 

AMANDA: I THINK BOTH OF THOSE INTERPRETATIONS ARE CORRECT.  CERTAINLY WE CAN’T TRAVEL BACK TO 1776 AND FIGURE OUT EXACTLY WHAT THE FOUNDING FATHERS MEAN BUT CERTAINLY THEY HAD A DIFFERENT CONTEXT IN WHICH THEY WERE THINKING ABOUT WRITING THAT SECOND AMENDMENT, THEY HAD DEFINITELY A PROBLEM IN MIND THAT THEY WERE CONSIDERING WHEN THEY WERE ENSURING THEMSELVES THE RIGHT TO BE ABLE TO BEAR ARMS.  WE DON’T NECESSARILY HAVE THAT SAME CONCERN IN 2008 BUT IT’S ALWAYS GOING TO BE IN THE UNITED STATES THE DRAW DOWN BETWEEN WHETHER WE HAVE THE RIGHT TO HAVE A MILITIA AND THE RIGHT TO BEAR ARMS IS SOMEHOW TIED ONLY TO THAT OR IT SPEAKS TO AN INDIVIDUAL PERSONS RIGHT TO HAVE A FIREARM IN THEIR POSSESSION.  WE IN THE UNITED STATES ARE UNIQUE IN THAT ASPECT IN TERMS OF OUR POSSESSION AND OUR SUPPORT OF GUN OWNERSHIP.  YOU DON’T FIND THESE PATTERNS IN MOST OF THE INDUSTRIALIZED MODERN WORLD OUTSIDE OF THE UNITED STATES.

 

PETER: HAVE YOU EVER SEEN A PERSON WALK IN AND ATTEMPT TO BUY A GUN FROM YOUR SHOP AND HAD AN INKLING THAT MAYBE THEY WEREN’T GIVING YOU THE RIGHT NAME OR THE ID WASN’T CORRECT AND THAT THEY MIGHT HAVE BEEN ONE OF THESE HIGH RISK PEOPLE THAT NICK REFERRED TO?

 

ROGER: I’VE BEEN IN THE BUSINESS FOR OVER 20 YEARS AND I CAN HONESTLY SAY THAT THE FEW TIMES THAT I’VE EVER ENCOUNTERED SOMEONE WHAT I JUST HAD AN INKLING OR A BAD FEELING ABOUT WAS, I MEAN WE’RE TALKING SINGLE DIGITS OVER A 20 YEAR TIME PERIOD.  MOST INDIVIDUALS REALIZE THAT THEY ARE GOING TO BE SCRUTINIZED, THEY ARE GOING TO BE LOOKED AT, THEIR PAPERWORK’S GOING TO BE LOOKED AT, THEIR SIGNATURE ON THEIR DRIVERS LICENSE COMPARED TO THE FORM ON THE FORM 7743 SIGNATURE ALL THAT IS GOING TO BE SCRUTINIZED, GREATER THAN THEY WOULD BY A BARTENDER AT A BAR AND THEN OF COURSE SINCE 1998 WITH THE PASSING OF, OR THE CONTINUATION OF THE BRADY LAW WHERE THEY START HAVING THE NATIONAL INSTANT CHECK SYSTEM, THAT TOOK A LOT OF PRESSURE OFF THE DEALERS TO GO WELL THIS PERSON COULD BY LYING, THAT THEY CLAIM THAT THEY’RE NOT A CONVICTED FELON BUT ARE THEY AND BY BEING CALLED INTO THE NATIONAL INSTANT CHECK SYSTEM IF THE FBI SAYS THAT YOU’RE OK THEN YOU’RE OK AND IF THE FBI SAYS YOU’RE NOT OK THEN MAYBE YOU ARE OR YOU’RE NOT BUT EITHER WAY YOU’RE NOT WALKING OUT WITH A FIREARM.

 

PETER: OK.  RECENTLY THERE HAVE BEEN SOME LEGAL CASES AND ONE OF THE PRE EMINENT CITIES OUR NATIONS CAPITAL HAS BEEN ATTEMPTING TO SHARPLY RESTRICT GUN SALES, NICK, POSSIBLY HAVE YOU HEARD ABOUT THAT CASE THAT’S ON APPEAL AND WHAT MAY HAPPEN, YET TO BE RULED ON?

 

NICK: YEAH.  ACTUALLY THIS INVOLVES A BAN ON THE PERSONAL POSSESSION OF HANDGUNS WITHIN THE LIMITS OF THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA AND IT’S BEEN IN EFFECT FOR 31 YEARS.  IT’S BEEN CHALLENGED SEVERAL TIMES BUT THIS IS THE FIRST CHALLENGE THAT’S STUCK SO FAR MAINLY BECAUSE THE PLANT WHO’S REMAINING IS ACTUALLY AN EMPLOYEE OF THE FEDERAL JUDICIAL CENTER, WHO’S A GUARD THERE WHO CARRIES A GUN ALL DAY BUT HE CAN’T HAVE ONE AT HIS HOUSE SO HE’S CHALLENGING THE BAN FOR THAT.  THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA CIRCUIT COURT IS THE FIRST COURT, APPELLATE COURT, FEDERAL COURT TO ACTUALLY RULE THAT THE SECOND AMENDMENT PROVIDES AN INDIVIDUAL RIGHT TO BEAR ARMS WHICH ACTUALLY THAT RULING WHETHER YOU AGREE WITH IT OR NOT UTTERLY DEFIES THE UNITED STATES SUPREME COURT AND THAT HAS RULED IN 1939 THAT IT WAS A COLLECTIVE RIGHT SO IT’S VERY INTERESTING, THIS IS WHAT IT TAKES, IT TAKES A LOWER COURT TO MAKE A DECISION SOMETHING THAT CAN BE CHALLENGED, NOW WE HAVE A WHOLE NEW SUPREME COURT THAT’S GOING TO TAKE A LOOK AT IT AGAIN, A SUPREME COURT THAT APPEARS TO BE SYMPATHETIC TO GUN OWNERS AS OPPOSED TO WHAT HAPPENED BACK IN 1939 AND IT COULD REALLY CHANGE THE INTERPRETATION OF THE SECOND AMENDMENT WHEN IT’S BEEN IN EXISTENCE FOR 200 YEARS.

 

PETER: AND AMANDA WHO WOULD YOU CONSIDER THE BIG POLITICAL LOBBYING FORCES GUN CONTROL OR GUN

 

AMANDA: WELL CERTAINLY THE NRA IS WITHOUT QUESTION AND PROBABLY COMPLETELY ONE SIDED IN TERMS OF THE AMOUNT OF POWER AND INFLUENCE THEY HAVE COMPARED TO THE ONES WHO LOBBY IN FAVOR OF GUN LAWS.  IT’S VERY DIFFICULT TO PASS ANY REAL STRICT OR COMPREHENSIVE GUN LEGISLATION WITHOUT BUTTING HEADS WITH THE NRA.

 

PETER: AND ON THE OTHER SIDE WE HAVE PEOPLE THAT ARE SUPPORTERS OF BRADY AND

 

AMANDA: BRADY AND CERTAINLY VICTIMS RIGHTS GROUPS AND THOSE TYPES OF GROUPS THAT TEND TO BE VERY SUPPORTIVE OF STRICT GUN LEGISLATION.

 

STATE GOVERNMENTS TOO HAVE INTERVENED AS WELL IN THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION. 

 

PETER: OK AND THE HELLER COURSE AGAIN IS AT THE SUPREME COURT LEVEL AND LIKE ANY OTHER CASES THAT ARE THERE WE NEVER KNOW WHEN THEY’RE GOING TO COME OUT WITH THEIR DECISION BUT WE’LL GET SOMETHING SOONER OR LATER.

 

SOUNDS LIKE WITHIN THIS YEAR POSSIBLY AND IT’S AN ELECTION YEAR TOO. 

 

PETER: WITH THE TWO BIG LOBBYING FORCES, THE NRA AND THE BRADY BILL, THERE’S A NUMBER OF ISSUES STILL WHETHER YOU’VE GOT FEDERAL REGULATION OR STATE REGULATION OR EVEN LIKE WE DO NOW, COUNTY REGULATION ISN’T THAT CORRECT?

 

YEAH WE STILL DO.  WE STILL HAVE A LOT OF GUN REGULATION.  I MEAN BASICALLY WHATEVER THE HELLER COURT DECIDES WILL HAVE AN IMPACT ON HOW FAR WE CAN REGULATE A PERSONAL POSSESSION OF FIREARMS.  WHETHER WE CAN DO IT AT ALL AND TO WHAT EXTENT. 

 

PETER: ONE OF THE OTHER THINGS, MY RESEARCH SAID THAT ASSAULT WEAPONS HAVE BEEN BANNED BUT YET WE STILL HEAR ABOUT SOME OF THEM BEING OUT THERE.  CAN YOU ELABORATE HOW THAT WOULD HAPPEN?

 

ROGER:  WELL THE TERM ASSAULT WEAPON HAS BEEN BANTERED AROUND FOR THE LAST 20 YEARS PRIOR TO THE 1980'S AN ASSAULT WEAPON MEANT A WEAPON CAPABLE OF FULLY AUTOMATIC FIRE IN OTHER WORDS YOU PUT THE LEVER TO FULL AUTO AND YOU COULD EMPTY THE MAGAZINE WITH ONE PULL OF THE TRIGGER OR AT LEAST SELECT FIRE AND COULD DO SEMI AUTOMATIC OR FULLY AUTOMATIC.  IN THE LATE 1980'S AND SPECIFICALLY IN MARCH OF 1989 THE ASSAULT WEAPONS BAN WAS PUT INTO EFFECT AND THAT EFFECTED IMPORTS BUT WHAT THEY WERE GOING AFTER THERE WAS WEAPONS THAT HAD A SIMILAR APPEARANCE TO THE FULLY AUTO COUNTERPART BUT WERE IN FACT SEMI AUTOMATIC IN OTHER WORDS, FOR EACH PULL OF THE TRIGGER THE WEAPON ONLY FIRED ONE TIME.  THAT TERM AS I SAY HAS BEEN BANTERED AROUND SO MUCH OVER THE LAST 20 YEARS THAT NOW IT’S BECOME COMMONPLACE IN OUR CURRENT VERNACULAR BUT.

 

PETER: WELL NOT EVERYBODYS CARRYING AN M10 OR UZI.

 

ROGER: NO NO IT’S JUST THAT’S THE POINT THOUGH THE PEOPLE HAVE BEEN IN THE GENERAL POPULATION HAVE BEEN MISLED INTO BELIEVING THAT WHAT THE LAWS AT THE DIFFERENT POINTS IN TIME, THE 89 ASSAULT WEAPONS BAN THE 94 ASSAULT WEAPONS BAN, THEY HAVE BEEN LED TO BELIEVE THAT WE’RE TALKING ABOUT MACHINE GUNS HERE AND WE’RE NOT.  WE’RE TALKING ABOUT SEMI AUTOMATIC EITHER HANDGUNS OR SEMI AUTOMATIC RIFLES WHICH MACHINE GUNS HAVE ACTUALLY BEEN CONTROLLED TIGHTLY CONTROLLED SINCE 1934.   WHEN THE ASSAULT WEAPONS BAN OF 1994 WAS SCHEDULED TO SUNSET IN FALL OF 2004 I ACTUALLY HAD CUSTOMERS WHO I FELT WERE FAIRLY WELL INFORMED SAY WELL GEE, AFTER THAT GOES AWAY NEXT WEEK YOU’LL BE ABLE TO START SELLING MACHINE GUNS AGAIN IT’S LIKE, NO, THAT’S NOT THE CASE.  THAT’S BEEN TIGHTLY CONTROLLED SINCE 1934.  THE 89 LAWS AS WELL AS THE 94 LAWS PEOPLE ARE LOOKING AT THINGS THAT LOOKED SOMEWHAT MENACING AND YES THEY MIGHT HAVE A LARGER MAGAZINE CAPACITY, THINGS ALONG THOSE LINES BUT THEY FOCUS ON THINGS LIKE BAYONET LUNGS AND FLASH LIGHTERS AND FOLDING STOCKS, THINGS THAT WERE IRRELEVANT TO THE ACTUAL CIRCUMSTANCES THAT THEY WERE ATTEMPTING TO ADDRESS.  I DON’T KNOW OF ANY RECENT HISTORY OF DRIVE BY BAYONETTINGS THAT HAVE GONE ON IN ANY CITY IN THE UNITED STATES BUT ASSAULT WEAPONS IN GENERAL HAVE BEEN PORTRAYED AS BEING A PARTICULAR CONCERN OR A GENRE AND I DON’T KNOW THAT THE ACTUAL, IN READ WORLD STATISTICS THAT THERE’S ACTUALLY ANY PROOF TO INDICATE THAT THOSE ARE BEING MORE COMMONLY USED.  AS MENTIONED PREVIOUSLY HANDGUNS ARE QUITE OFTEN THE WEAPON OF CHOICE FOR CRIMINALS JUST SIMPLY BECAUSE IT FITS INTO A SMALL SPACE.  YOU CAN HIDE IT, YOU CAN CONCEAL IT AND GOING BACK TO THE 1968 GUN CONTROL ACT THAT WAS WHAT THEY WERE FOCUSING ON THAT TIME WAS WHAT THEY CALLED SATURDAY NIGHT SPECIALS.  GUNS WERE SO SMALL THAT THEY COULD EASILY BE CONCEALED AND SO THEY ACTUALLY SET UP A POINT SYSTEM FOR IMPORTATION THAT A GUN HAD TO BE SO LONG SO HIGH SO WIDE HAVE AN ELABORATE TARGET GRIP AND OR ADJUSTABLE SIGHTS TO GET ENOUGH POINTS TO BE ALLOWED FOR IMPORTATION SO THE FOCUS 40 YEARS AGO WAS TINY GUNS IN THE LAST 20 YEARS IT’S BEEN QUOTE UNQUOTE ASSAULT WEAPONS.

 

PETER: NICK, GIVEN THE CURRENT STATE OF THE TV SHOWS AND WHAT WE SEE, HAVE YOU EVER BEEN AWARE OF ANYWHERE IN EASTERN IOWA THE STATE OF IOWA WHERE OUR LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIALS HAVE RESPONDED TO SOME TYPE OF ROBBERY OR CRISIS AND THEY SHOW UP FINDING THEMSELVES UNDERARMED OR OUTGUNNED BY WHOEVERS PERPETRATING IT BECAUSE YOU SEE THIS ON TV ALL THE TIME AND I THINK SOME OF OUR VIEWERS MAY WONDER WHETHER THAT’S EVEN HAPPENING IN EASTERN IOWA.

 

NICK: UNLESS THERE’S SOME KIND OF UNDERGROUND MAFIA PRESENCE IN THE STATE, OR THERE’S MORE GANG ACTIVITY THAN I’M AWARE OF, NORMALLY THE POLICE ARE PRETTY WELL SUITED TO HANDLE ANYTHING THAT THEY ENCOUNTER.

 

PETER: AS A PUBLIC SERVICE ELEMENT ON THIS PROGRAM THIS MORNING, AREN’T THERE FREE GUN TRIGGER LOCKS AVAILABLE LOCALLY?

 

IT’S WHAT I UNDERSTAND.

 

PETER: AND YOU KNOW WHERE YOU CAN GET THEM DON’T YOU? 

 

AT THE SHERIFFS OFFICE ON THE SECOND FLOOR.

 

THE PURPOSE OF THAT IS SO THAT THE UNAUTHORIZED AS MENTIONED PREVIOUSLY, THE INDIVIDUALS THAT ARE GETTING ACCESS TO THE WEAPONS THAT ARE UNAUTHORIZED INDIVIDUALS THAT YOU CAN ACTUALLY LOCK THE WEAPONS UP AND MAKE IT SAFER TO BE STORED IN YOUR HOME.

 

PETER: AND THE GUN SHOWS AND THE TRADE SHOWS ALL HAVE THE SAME KIND OF SPECIFIC BACKGROUND CHECKING GOING ON THAT YOU GET IF YOU ACTUALLY WENT TO A STOREFRONT?

 

ROGER: ALL LICENSED DEALERS ARE REQUIRED TO CONDUCT THE SAME BACKGROUND CHECK AT A SHOW AS THE SAME AS THEY WOULD AT THEIR STORE.

 

PETER: AND IN ADDITION TO THAT CHECK THEN DO YOU KEEP A LOG OF GUNS AND SERIAL NUMBERS ON GUNS THAT ARE SOLD?

ROGER: YES, OF COURSE.  ALL WEAPONS THAT ARE BROUGHT INTO THE BUSINESS AND THEN ARE LATER SOLD THROUGH THE BUSINESS COMING AND GOING MUST BE LOGGED IN, LOGGED OUT, WHO THEY CAME FROM, WHO THEY WENT TO AND SO EVERYTHING IS DOCUMENTED AND THAT’S BEEN THE CASE.

 

PETER: IS THERE ANY KIND OF REGULATORY AGENCY THAT COMES IN AND CHECKS YOU FROM TIME TO TIME?

 

ROGER: THE BUREAU OF ALCOHOL TOBACCO AND FIREARMS AND NOW EXPLOSIVES.

 

PETER: AMANDA, DO YOU HAVE ANY COMMENTS ON WHETHER YOU THINK THE IMPACT OF CONTROLLING THE SALE IS GOING TO CONTINUE TO POSSIBLY CUT DOWN ON SOME OF THIS?

 

AMANDA: WE KNOW THAT RESEARCH HAS INDICATED SINCE IN 1994 THE BRADY BILL IN PARTICULAR THAT WE ARE BEING SUCCESSFUL IN CONTROLLING ON THE SALE OF PARTICULARLY HANDGUNS AND THAT’S THE GUNS THAT WE ARE MOST CONCERNED ABOUT WITH RELATIONSHIP TO VIOLENT CRIME.  THE PROBLEM IS AS MENTIONED, THE ATF IS THE AGENCY RESPONSIBLE FOR REGULATION AND PARTICULARLY FOR MAKING SURE THAT UNLICENSED DEALERS ARE NOT BENDING THE RULES AND UNFORTUNATELY THEY ARE SIMPLY UNDERSTAFFED AND UNMANNED AND THERE’S NOT SO MUCH THAT THERE ARE HOLES IN THE REGULATIONS THAT WE CURRENTLY HAVE THERE ARE SIMPLY HOLES IN THE BEING ABLE TO ENFORCE THE REGULATIONS.

 

PETER: THAT’S NOT UNLIKE A LOT OF OTHER GOVERNMENT AGENCIES, THE EMPLOYEES FEEL LIKE THEY’RE UNDERSTAFFED AND OVERWORKED. 

 

AMANDA: IN FACT WHEN LAWS WERE PASSED IN THE EARLY 90'S WE SEE NEW LAWS REQUIRING MORE REGULATION OF GUNS AND THE ATF ACTUALLY SUFFERING FROM CUTS IN THE NUMBER OF OFFICERS THAT THEY HAD.

 

PETER: WE’VE HEARD THAT SAME PROBLEM ON IMMIGRATION AND BORDER AGENTS, THAT SAME THING.  NICK, IF YOU THINK THE HELLER CASE IS GOING TO MAKE A DIFFERENCE, WHAT’S GOING TO HAPPEN NEXT, ANY IDEA IF THE BAN IS OVERTURNED THEN EVERYBODY CAN HAVE A GUN IN THEIR HOUSE?

 

NICK: WELL IF WHAT HAPPENS IN THE HELLER CASE IS WHAT I THINK WILL HAPPEN AND THE BAN WILL BE OVERTURNED THEN WE’LL SEE A LOT MORE CHALLENGES TO GUN CONTROL LEGISLATION OUT THERE.  CHALLENGES THAT MAY RESULT FROM PEOPLE FEELING THAT THE BACKGROUND CHECKS WERE TOO EXTENSIVE OR FEELING LIKE THEY DON’T NEED TO GO THROUGH THE TRAINING NEEDED TO GET CERTIFIED TO POSSESS A GUN IN CERTAIN STATES ALL THE WAY TO WE MIGHT SEE CHALLENGES THAT PROHIBITING A FELON FROM POSSESSING A FIREARM IS UNCONSTITUTIONAL AS WELL UNDER THE SECOND AMENDMENT.  I MEAN IT COULD REACH INTO AN AREA WHERE WE SEE A LOT OF DIFFERENT CHALLENGES HOWEVER I THINK WHAT WE’LL PROBABLY SEE AS A RESULT OF IT IS THAT THE D.C. BAN ON GUN OWNERSHIP JUST GOES TOO FAR IN THE SECOND AMENDMENT.  THERE IS SOME INDICIA OF INDIVIDUAL RIGHT IN THE SECOND AMENDMENT.

 

PETER: AND IT MAY GET ADJUSTED AND REWRITTEN AND PASSED AGAIN MUCH LIKE OTHER LAWS THAT HAVE MORPHED INTO A DIFFERENT FORM. 

 

NICK: YEAH THE D.C. LAW NOT THE SECOND AMENDMENT. 

 

PETER: WELL WE’VE JUST GOT A COUPLE OF MINUTES LEFT.  WOULD YOU LIKE TO MAKE ANY FINAL COMMENTS?

 

ROGER: WELL I THINK WE’VE COVERED A LOT OF GROUND AND HOPEFULLY CLARIFIED A FEW THINGS FOR INDIVIDUALS.  I THINK WHAT WE’RE GOING BACK TO WITH THE HELLER LAW IS OR THE CASE IS THAT IN WASHINGTON D.C., PRIVATE INDIVIDUALS, LAW ABIDING INDIVIDUALS ARE NOT ALLOWED TO EVEN POSSESS A HANDGUN TO DEFEND THEIR HOME AND YET THE CRIMINAL ELEMENT IS STILL ABLE TO ACCESS WEAPONS THROUGH THEIR ILLEGAL SOURCES AS PREVIOUSLY MENTIONED.  I THINK BASICALLY IF THIS IS OVERTURNED IT’S BASICALLY LEVELING THE PLAYING FIELD AND GIVING THE LAW ABIDING CITIZEN THE OPPORTUNITY TO PROTECT THEMSELVES AGAINST THE CRIMINAL ELEMENT WHO IS POSSESSING A FIREARM ILLEGALLY.

 

PETER: AMANDA, ANY FINAL QUICK COMMENT?

 

AMANDA: JUST TO ADD TO THAT WITH GUN CONTROL PARTICULARLY, WE ARE REALLY CONCERNED ABOUT THE GUN CONTROL OR THE GUNS THAT RESULT IN CRIME, VIOLENT CRIME IN PARTICULAR AND WHEN WE TALK ABOUT THAT WE’RE TALKING ABOUT A VERY SMALL SUBSET OF INDIVIDUALS AND TYPES OF WEAPONS AND EVEN LOCATIONS WHERE THOSE THINGS ARE OCCURRING AND SO WHAT THE GUN LAWS ARE RESTRICTING THE AVERAGE LAW ABIDING CITIZEN, THOSE AREN’T THE PEOPLE WE’RE WORRIED ABOUT. 

 

PETER: NICK, REAL QUICKLY.

 

NICK: IF GUNS ARE GETTING INTO THE HANDS OF CRIMINALS IN AN AREA WHERE THE FBI AND THE ATF AND THE FEDERAL LAW ENFORCEMENT IS BASED THEN CLEARLY THE BAN ISN’T WORKING. 

 

PETER: I SEE.  WELL I’D LIKE TO THANK EACH OF YOU THIS MORNING FOR JOINING US AND ON BEHALF OF THE INTER RELIGIOUS COUNCIL OF LINN COUNTY THANK YOU FOR JOINING US AND GO OUT AND BE SAFE TODAY.