PETER: GOOD MORNING AND WELCOME TO ETHICAL PERSPECTIVES ON THE NEWS.  MY NAME IS PETER WELCH AND I’M THE MODERATOR FOR THIS MORNINGS SHOW.  THIS MORNING WE’D LIKE TO VISIT ABOUT TERM WHISTLE BLOWERS AND WHAT THAT WOULD ACTUALLY MEAN AND HOW IT COULD POSSIBLY ADD VALUE TO THE ONGOING PROCESS OF CONDUCTING THE BUSINESS OF GOVERNMENT AND CORPORATIONS ALIKE.  WITH US THIS MORNING FIRST IS MISS BETH HANKIN WHO CONSIDERS HERSELF A WHISTLE BLOWER AND IS IN FACT ONE AND WHO WORKS AT MIDWEST VENTURES IN MONTICELLO IOWA.  ALSO WITH US THIS MORNING IS MR GARY STREIT WHO IS PRESIDENT OF THE SHUTTLEWORTH INGERSOLL LAW FIRM HERE IN CEDAR RAPIDS AND HE’S ALSO CHAIRMAN OF THE CITY OF CEDAR RAPIDS BOARD OF ETHICS.  ROUNDING OUT OUR PANEL THIS MORNING IS MISS KATHRYN COULTER WHO’S A PROFESSOR OF BUSINESS ETHICS AT MT MERCY HERE IN CEDAR RAPIDS.  FIRST OF ALL, IN A GENERAL TERM WOULD ONE OF YOU CARE TO SAY A LITTLE BIT ABOUT WHAT WHISTLE BLOWING IS ALL ABOUT? 

 

GARY:  YOU’RE THE ONE THAT’S DONE IT.

 

BETH: WELL, WHISTLE BLOWING IS JUST SIMPLY IN MY PARTICULAR CASE, INFORMING THE GOVERNMENT OF FRAUD AND ABUSE IN GOVERNMENT CONTRACTING.  IT’S JUST ALERTS THE GOVERNMENT OF SOMETHING THAT ONE KNOWS THAT IS HIGHLY ILLEGAL AND ESSENTIALLY IS COSTING THE TAXPAYERS A GREAT DEAL OF MONEY. 

 

PETER: OK NOW IN YOUR PARTICULAR CASE YOU ACTUALLY DID CALL ABOUT A GOVERNMENT PROCUREMENT AND SOMETHING THAT WAS GOING ON IS THAT CORRECT?

 

BETH: YES, THAT IS CORRECT.  I WAS SUPPLYING MEAT PRODUCTS FOR A CONTRACTOR FOR THE U.S. MILITARY INVOLVED IN IRAQ RECONSTRUCTION.  I BID ON PRODUCTS GOING TO, THAT WERE SUPPOSED TO GO TO THE PRIME VENDOR WHICH HAS THE A COMPANY CALLED PWC LOGISTICS, IT IS A KUWAITI BASED COMPANY WHICH HAS THE LIONS SHARE OF THE PRIME VENDORS CONTRACTS WITHIN THE MIDDLE EAST.  THEY SUPPLY FOOD PRODUCTS AND LOGISTICS TO FEED ALL THE TROOPS WITHIN KUWAIT, IRAQ AND JORDAN PRESENTLY.  I FOUND THAT THEY WERE OVERCHARGING THE U.S. GOVERNMENT AND I REPORTED IT DIRECTLY TO THE DEFENSE SUPPLY IN OUR PHILADELPHIA WHICH IS THE PART OF THE GOVERNMENT ARM WHICH OVERSEES THE CONTRACT. 

 

PETER: I SEE.  GARY CAN YOU EXPLAIN A LITTLE BIT SINCE ONE OF OUR MISSIONS IS INFORMATIVE, WHAT THE BOARD OF ETHICS IS OR WOULD DO FOR THE CITY OF CEDAR RAPIDS?

 

GARY: WHEN THE CITY WENT TO THE NEW CHARTER ONE OF THE REQUIREMENTS WAS THAT THE CITY ESTABLISH A BOARD OF ETHICS AND THE GOAL AND PURPOSE OF THE BOARD OF ETHICS IS REALLY TO ASSURE COMPLIANCE WITH THE CONFLICT OF INTEREST POLICY, THE CITY BASICALLY THAT STATED IN THE CITY ORDINANCE A VERY GENERAL TERMS THAT NO ONE SHOULD OBTAIN PRIVATE BENEFIT BY VIRTUE OF HIS OR HER OFFICE AND SO THE FIRST TASK OF THE ETHICS BOARD WAS TO FLUSH OUT THAT VERY GENERAL TERM IN THE CITY ORDINANCE.  WE SPENT SEVERAL WEEKS, WE MEANING THE BOARD, THE BOARD IS APPOINTED BY THE CITY COUNCIL AND THERE ARE FIVE OF US A SISTER, A FORMER U.S. ATTORNEY, A FORMER NFL FOOTBALL OFFICIAL, CPA AND THEN A LAWYER, MYSELF.  SO, VERY DIVERSE GROUP OF PEOPLE AND WE LOOKED AT TWO THINGS, ONE IS DEFINING A CONFLICT OF INTEREST AND ENDED UP DEFINING IT ESSENTIALLY AS AN ACTION THAT WOULD RESULT IN A FINANCIAL BENEFIT TO THE INDIVIDUAL.  IF YOU LOOK AT THE INTERNAL REVENUE CODE OR IT HAS CONFLICTS OF INTEREST OR PUBLIC ACCOUNTANCY OR ANYPLACE ELSE IT REALLY IS COUCHED IN FINANCIAL TERMS AND WE THOUGHT THAT MADE SENSE BECAUSE OTHERWISE ITS JUST TOO HARD TO PROVE AND THEN WE REALLY ESSENTIALLY ADAPTED THAT AS A DEFINITION THAT IF YOU ARE ENGAGED AS A PUBLIC OFFICIAL YOU CANNOT TAKE ACTION THAT WILL FINANCIALLY BENEFIT NOT ONLY YOURSELF BUT YOUR FAMILY, YOUR EMPLOYER, DEFINED FAMILY VERY BROADLY, DEFINED EMPLOYER QUITE BROADLY CAUSE THE WHOLE PURPOSE IS TO INSTILL PEOPLES CONFIDENCE THAT THE GOVERNMENT PROCESS IS FAIR WHETHER IT’S ZONING A PIECE OF PROPERTY OR AWARDING A CONTRACT THAT A PERSON IN A POSITION MAKING DECISIONS ISN’T SOMEHOW BENEFITTING THROUGH THE BACK DOOR.  WE OPTED TO LIMIT THE APPLICATION OF STATUTE TO THE CITY COUNCIL, THE CITY MANAGER, THE CHIEF OF POLICE, THE FIRE CHIEF BECAUSE THOSE ARE ALL APPOINTED BY THE COUNCIL, THE CITY ATTORNEY IS ALSO APPOINTED BY THE COUNCIL BUT THEN ALL OF THE CITY COMMISSIONS AND BOARDS BECAUSE THEY EXERT A SIGNIFICANT AMOUNT OF INFLUENCE OVER CITY BUDGETS SO TO TIE BACK TO THE WHISTLE BLOWER CONCEPT, ONCE WE DEFINE THE RULES AND WHAT WAS OR WAS NOT A CONFLICT WHO IT APPLIED TO WE SPENT A LOT OF TIME TALKING ABOUT HOW DO YOU ENFORCE THIS SO THERE’S A VERY DEFINITE MECHANISM IN THE CITY ETHICS STATUTE NOW, THE CITY ETHICS ORDINANCE WHICH BASICALLY TALKS ABOUT THE PROCESS OF HOW A PERSON CAN LODGE A COMPLAINT IF HE OR SHE FEELS THAT A CITY OFFICIAL IS ENGAGED IN A CONFLICT OF INTEREST TRANSACTION.  IT WAS AN INTERESTING DISCUSSION PETE BECAUSE A PERSON COULD TAKE THE POSITION GOSH, WE SHOULD BE VERY CIRCUMSPECT ABOUT LETTING SOMEONE COMPLAIN BECAUSE A PERSON WITH A GRUDGE COULD FILE AN IMPROPER COMPLAINT.  THE BALANCE AGAINST THAT WAS WE WANT TRANSPARENCY WE WANT OPENNESS IN GOVERNMENT SO WE OPTED TO MAKE THE COMPLAINT PROCESS VERY OPEN SO IF A PERSON HAS A COMPLAINT THEY HAVE TO FOLLOW A VERY SPECIFIC FORM PROVIDE A LOT OF DETAIL, FILE WITH THE CITY CLERK COPY GOES TO THE PERSON WHO SUPPOSEDLY VIOLATED THE STATUTE, COPY COMES TO OUR BOARD AND THEN WE HAVE A VERY INVOLVED PROCESS OF INVESTIGATION IN DIFFERENT LEVELS OF SANCTION AS IT WORKS ITS WAY THROUGH BUT WE HAVE NOT HAD A COMPLAINT FILED.  WE HAVE HAD SEVERAL REQUESTS FOR ADVISORY OPINIONS WHERE A COUNCIL PERSON WOULD SAY GOSH, HERE’S A FACT PATTERN, WHAT CAN OR CAN’T I VOTE ON?  SO IT’S NOT IF YOU WANT TO GET BACK TO THE WHISTLE BLOWING DEFINITION, IT’S SORT OF LIKE SELF WHISTLE BLOWING.  I WANT TO KNOW IF I’M GOING TO GET OUTSIDE THE BOX BY VOTING ON A PARTICULAR ORDINANCE.

 

PETER: OK.  PROFESSOR, CAN YOU ENLIGHTEN SOME OF OUR LISTENERS AND VIEWERS THIS MORNING ON WHAT THE ECONOMIC IMPACT OF WHAT WHISTLE BLOWER PROGRAMS MIGHT HAVE ON GOVERNMENTS OR BUSINESSES OR COMPANIES?

 

KATHRYN: WELL IT’S INTERESTING, I THINK A COUPLE OF THINGS WE MIGHT WANT TO TALK ABOUT IN TERMS OF WHISTLE BLOWING FIRST VIRTUALLY EVERY STATE IN THE UNITED STATES HAS SOME KIND OF STATUTE THAT TO A CERTAIN EXTENT PROTECTS WHISTLE BLOWERS SO ONE OF THE ISSUES AND I THINK BETH IT WOULD BE INTERESTING TO TALK TO YOU ABOUT, WHAT ARE THE CONSEQUENCES OF BLOWING THE WHISTLE.  THERE’S SEVERAL FEDERAL STATUTES ARE BEING I’M SAYING THIS WRONG, SARBANES OXLEY, THE NEW ETHICS LEGISLATION ACTUALLY HAS A PROTECTION FOR WHISTLE BLOWERS WHO WHISTLE UNDER THAT AND SEVERAL FEDERAL STATUTES DO IN FACT SOMETIMES THERE ARE FINANCIAL BENEFITS FOR WHISTLE BLOWING.  ON THE OTHER HAND THE STATISTICS ON WHISTLE BLOWERS IN PRIVATE COMPANIES ESPECIALLY ARE NOT VERY HAPPY ONES THAT PEOPLE OFTEN LOSE THEIR JOBS EVEN WITH PROTECTION.  YOU KNOW LOTS OF WAYS TO FORCE SOMEBODY OUT OTHER THAN JUST BLATANTLY FIRING THEM SO I THINK THE INTERESTING THING IN A SENSE WE ENCOURAGE WHISTLE BLOWING, WE WANT TO KNOW WHEN PEOPLE DO SOMETHING WRONG, WE WANT TO BE ABLE TO CORRECT THAT ON THE OTHER HAND, WE HAVE A CULTURE WHERE WE DON’T LOOK VERY FAVORABLY ON TATTLE TALES AND THERE’S A SENSE IN MANY ESPECIALLY PRIVATE INDUSTRY, A KIND OF DISLOYALTY.  EVEN IF IT’S RIGHT THERE’S A SENSE THAT SOMEHOW YOU’VE RATTED OUT YOUR PALS AND THAT’S A REALLY KIND OF CONTRADICTION FOR PEOPLE AND IT ALSO MAKES IT DIFFICULT TO BLOW THAT WHISTLE EVEN THOUGH WE SAY WE ENCOURAGE IT, THE REALITY IS THAT PEOPLE ARE OFTEN PUNISHED FOR BLOWING THE WHISTLE.

 

PETER:   AND ISN’T’ THERE IN FACT A CONFLICT THAT WITHIN SOME CULTURES KICKBACKS OR BRIBES ARE PERMITTED? 

 

KATHRYN: IT’S CULTURE, CULTURAL DIFFERENCES ARE REALLY INTERESTING I MEAN SOME PEOPLE WHO COME TO THIS COUNTRY CONSIDER IT UNETHICAL THAT OUR WAITERS AND WAITRESSES GET TIPS.  IN THEIR COUNTRIES WHAT WE WOULD CONSIDER A BRIBE TO GIVE SOMEBODY FIVE BUCKS TO UNLOAD YOUR TRUCK, TO THEM WOULD BE THE SAME AS A TIP.  EVERY COUNTRY IN THE WORLD THOUGH WOULD PEOPLE AT UPPER LEVEL GOVERNMENT THERE MANAGEMENT TAKING A BRIBE THAT’S A WHOLE DIFFERENT ISSUE.  I MEAN THAT’S NOT CULTURALLY NEUTRAL, THAT’S PRETTY MUCH ACROSS THE BOARD. 

 

PETER: ACROSS THE BOARD WHAT?  ACCEPTABLE?

 

KATHRYN: UNACCEPTABLE.  FOR A GOVERNMENT OFFICIAL, IF IT BECOMES PUBLIC IT’S ALWAYS UNACCEPTABLE.

 

GARY: IN MY EXPERIENCE OF CLIENTS OF OURS THAT DO BUSINESS INTERNATIONALLY THEY’RE JUST ASTONISHED AT THE LEVEL OF CORRUPTION NOT ONLY IN DEALING WITH GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS BUT JUST IN THE BUSINESS ETHICS LACK.  WHAT THEY HAVE IN THE UNITED STATES YOU KNOW THE UNITED STATES GENERALLY THE NORM IS WHEN BUSINESS PEOPLE DEAL WITH ONE ANOTHER THEY CAN TAKE IT TO THE BANK AND SO WHEN THEY GET TO THESE FOREIGN COUNTRIES THEY’RE FRUSTRATED BECAUSE THEY DON’T REALLY HAVE A MECHANISM TO DEAL WITH.

 

PETER: FOR EXAMPLE IN MEXICO THEY CALL IT MORITA AND IT’S LEGAL AND YOU GREASE WHOEVER IF YOU WANT TO ACCOMPLISH SOMETHING. 

 

IT’S LEGAL AT LOWER LEVELS BUT IF IT BECOMES PUBLIC YOU’RE EXACTLY RIGHT.  THERE’S TREMENDOUS AMOUNT OF CORRUPTION BUT IF IT BECOMES PUBLIC IT’S CONDEMNED.  THAT’S THE WHOLE IDEA OF WHISTLE BLOWING IS TO MAKE IT PUBLIC SO FOR EXAMPLE IN THIS INSTANCE YOU’RE TALKING ABOUT THE MIDDLE EAST YOU CAN ARGUE THAT THERE’S A LOT OF CORRUPTION BUT WHEN IT BECOMES PUBLIC IT TAKE SON A DIFFERENT TONE.  THAT’S WHAT WHISTLE BLOWING DOES THAT MAKES IT VERY DIFFERENT. 

 

PETER: IN BETHS CASE WITH HER BEING A WHISTLE BLOWER ISN’T THAT IN FACT SAVING THE AMERICAN TAXPAYERS SOME MONEY BECAUSE WE’RE NOT PAYING THOSE INFLATED AMOUNTS, I MEAN.

 

EXACTLY, BUT BETH WHAT WERE THE CONSEQUENCES OF YOUR WHISTLE BLOWING?

 

BETH: WELL THEY WERE ENORMOUS.  FIRST OF ALL I WAS IGNORED.  I WAS IGNORED BY PENTAGON OFFICIALS, I WAS IGNORED BY SOME OTHER OFFICIALS WITHIN THE KUWAITI COMPANY, I WAS THREATENED BY THE COMPANY THAT I COMPLAINED ABOUT THAT IF I DIDN’T STOP TALKING TO PEOPLE IN WASHINGTON THEY WERE GOING TO COME AFTER MY COMPANY AND ME PERSONALLY AND I IGNORED IT.  I THOUGH THAT IF THEY, I KNEW I HIT A NERVE WHEN I COMPLAINED AND NOW THAT THERE HAS BEEN SOME INVESTIGATIVE JOURNALISM HAS TAKEN PLACE AND HAS LOOKED INTO THIS PARTICULAR COMPANY AND HOW THEY’RE BEHAVING ON THIS U.S. GOVERNMENT CONTRACT AND IT IS A CONTRACT WORTH OVER 4 BILLION AND THEY ARE UNDER INVESTIGATION BUT DESPITE THAT THEY CONTINUE TO GET NEW CONTRACTS AND MOST OF THE PROBLEM STEMS FROM THE INACTION OF THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE AND THE CURRENT ADMINISTRATION.  I TELL YOU FOR ANYBODY LIKE MYSELF AND SOME OF THE OTHER WHISTLE BLOWERS THAT HAVE COMPLAINED TO THE U.S. GOVERNMENT ABOUT CONTRACTING IN IRAQ AND IRAQ RECONSTRUCTION, I CAN TELL YOU IT DEVASTATES YOUR LIFE.  I’VE LOST ALL MY BUSINESS, I HAVE BEEN SUED SEVERAL TIMES.  I’VE HAD TO MOVE NUMEROUS TIMES. 

 

PETER: MAKES YOU A VERY LONELY PERSON?

 

 BETH: YES IT DOES AND TRYING TO GET PEOPLE TO UNDERSTAND THAT WHEN YOU DO BLOW THE WHISTLE, PARTICULARLY IF IT’S IN A SITUATION THAT DEALS WITH POLICY IN WASHINGTON I CAN TELL YOU THERE ARE SEVERE CONSEQUENCES AND THERE HAS BEEN NO BENEFITS.  ON TOP OF THAT I HAVE ALSO RECEIVED A LOT OF REALLY BAD TREATMENT BY THE U.S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE.  IN FACT THEY HAVE INDICATED TO ME THAT THEY FEEL THAT THE COMPANY I COMPLAINED ABOUT MIGHT HAVE A COMPLAINT AGAINST ME CONCERNING BREACH OF SEAL AND I HAVE NOT VIOLATED THAT AND MY ATTORNEYS HAVE STOOD BY ME AND BUT THAT THREAT STILL REMAINS OVER MY HEAD.  THERE ARE OTHER INVESTIGATIONS THAT ARE GOING ON AROUND THE SAME COMPANY WHERE SOME PEOPLE HAVE ENDED UP DEAD.  IN ONE PARTICULAR CASE, A GENTLEMAN, A LIEUTENANT COLONEL WITHIN THE ARMY WHO WAS LOOKING OVER THIS CONTRACT AND WAS REPORTING BACK TO DFCP THE DEFENSE SUPPLY CENTER IN PHILADELPHIA WHICH OVERSEES THE CONTRACT, HE COMPLAINED AND COMPLAINED JUST AS I DID AND TO THE SAME PEOPLE AND HE’S DEAD AND THE INVESTIGATORS CLAIM THAT HE COMMITTED SUICIDE AND I DON’T BELIEVE IT. 

 

PETER: WELL IT SURPRISES ME TO HEAR THAT THERE ARE SO MANY DIFFERENT LEVELS OF RETALIATORY CONDUCT THAT SOMEBODY DOESN’T WAKE UP AND SAY THIS IS REALLY WRONG, WHY ISN’T SOMEBODY STRAIGHTENING THIS OUT.

 

BETH:  THAT’S RIGHT BUT IF YOU SPEAK TO PEOPLE IN THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE THEY CLAIM THAT THEY ARE CONDUCTING AN INVESTIGATION INTO THIS COMPANY AND THAT THEY ARE DOING SOMETHING BUT I DON’T SEE ANY ACTION, I DON’T SEE ANY ARRESTS, I DON’T SEE ANY INDICTMENTS, I DON’T SEE ANY ACTION TAKING PLACE AGAINST THIS COMPANY IN FACT THEY’RE BEING REWARDED BECAUSE THEY’RE GETTING NEW CONTRACTS.  FOR ANYBODY THAT’S DONE THIS AND IF YOU HAPPEN TO LOOK AT SOME OF THE PROFILES ON THE INTERNET OR THROUGH THE MEDIA YOU’LL FIND THAT EVERYBODY THAT’S BLOWN THE WHISTLE ON A MAJOR CONTRACTOR REGRETS IT IN THE END. 

 

KATHRYN: THAT’S A SAD COMMENTARY.

 

BETH: VERY SAD.

 

GARY: YOU WOULD THINK THAT THERE WOULD BE SOME MECHANISM TO COMPENSATE PEOPLE FOR THEIR TIME AND THEIR COSTS AT SOME JUNCTURE OF THE PROCESS SO THAT YOU ENCOURAGE PEOPLE TO CARRY OUT.

 

BETH: THERE IS IF YOU

 

GARY: YOU HAVE TO GET TO A CERTAIN LEVEL?

 

BETH: THEY HAVE TO INSTIGATE AN INVESTIGATION BASED ON YOUR ALLEGATIONS, THEY HAVE TO GO THROUGH WITH IT, THERE IS A CERTAIN AMOUNT THAT DOES GO TO THE WHISTLE BLOWER IN THE END BUT IT’S A VERY VERY LONG LENGTHY PROCESS THAT GOES OVER A NUMBER OF YEARS.  MY BEST HOPE IS THAT ONE IS THAT BY THIS TIME NEXT YEAR WE’LL PROBABLY HAVE A NEW PRESIDENT, THEY’LL BE SOMEONE WHO’S NOT GOING TO BE LIKE THIS CURRENT ADMINISTRATION AND I HAVE TO SAY I USED TO BE A REGISTERED REPUBLICAN, I USED TO VOTE STRAIGHT TICKET.  I WILL BE AN INDEPENDENT THE REST OF MY LIFE AFTER THIS EXPERIENCE. 

 

PETER: IF WE WENT BACK TO JUST STRICTLY YOUR MASLOVS HIERARCHY OF NEEDS THAT WHEN YOU START CHALLENGING MANAGEMENT PRACTICES LIKE THIS, YOU’RE DEALING WITH SOMEBODY’S CAREER, THEIR PHYSICAL SAFETY, THEIR MONEY AND PEOPLE WOULD RESORT TO DESPERATE THINGS WOULDN’T YOU AGREE PROFESSOR?

 

KATHRYN: YES, AND AGAIN THIS ISN’T JUST BETH.  THE STATISTICS SHOW THAT WHISTLE BLOWERS EVEN ON VERY MUCH LOWER LEVEL WITHIN SMALLER COMPANIES HAVE A VERY HIGH RATE OF LOSING THEIR JOBS, A VERY HIGH RATE.  SO THERE’S KIND OF A CONTRADICTION, IF WE GO BACK TO THE ETHICS OF THIS THERE’S CULTURE THAT AS A SOCIETY WE CERTAINLY AND I BELIEVE GARY’S RIGHT, OUR STANDARDS ARE VERY HIGH IN THIS COUNTRY BUT THE REALITY OF WHAT HAPPENS WHEN PEOPLE DO WHISTLE BLOW IT IS A CONTRADICTION TO THAT HIGH STANDARD AND VERY SAD. 

 

GARY: ON A MORE POSITIVE NOTE I HEARD GREAT I WOULD CALL IT A WHISTLE BLOWER STORY, A GENTLEMAN WHO’S A FINANCE PROFESSOR AT THE UNIVERSITY OF IOWA WAS DOING SOME RESEARCH ON STOCK OPTIONS AND HE THOUGH BOY IS THIS COINCIDENTAL, EVERY TIME SOMEBODY GOT A STOCK OPTION GRANT AND IT’S MORE OPTIMAL IF THE GRANT IS GIVEN WHEN THE STOCK IS AT IT’S LOWEST PRICE, ALL THESE COMPANIES WERE SO SMART.  ALL THEIR EXECUTIVES WERE GETTING THEIR OPTIONS WHEN THE MARKET WAS AT THE LOW END OF THE SCALE SO HE DID SOME RESEARCH AND STARTED WONDERING ABOUT IT AND TO MAKE A VERY LONG STORY SHORT WHEN SOMEBODYS *** WAS PASSED, THEY COULDN’T BACKDATE THESE OPTIONS AND HE WAS RATED BY TIME MAGAZINE AS ONE OF THE TOP 100 MOST INFLUENTIAL PEOPLE IN THE COUNTRY IN 2007.  BUT YOU WONDER IF IT’S A DIFFERENT STANDARD, HE IS OUTSIDE THE CORPS, HE’S AN ACADEMIC AND JUST KIND OF STUMBLED INTO THIS AND YOU KNOW SOMETIMES YOU WONDER IS IT GENDER BASED OR WHAT IS IT THAT THEY THOUGHT YOU WERE JUST CRABBING BECAUSE YOUR BUSINESS IS AT STAKE BUT THAT’S A GOOD STORY ABOUT A WHISTLE BLOWER.

 

I THINK THERE’S SOME GOOD THINGS GOING ON IN PRIVATE CORPORATIONS TOO.  FOR EXAMPLE ROCKWELL RIGHT HERE IN CEDAR RAPIDS HAS VERY GOOD INTERNAL COMPLAINT PROCESS, THEY HAVE AN OMBUDSMEN PERSON THAT AND I THINK THEY HAVE VERY HIGH STANDARDS OF CONFIDENTIALITY AND ENCOURAGE THAT INTERNALLY IN THEIR COMPANY BECAUSE I THINK THERE’S ALSO YOU KNOW COMPANIES DON’T WANT TO BE CAUGHT OFF GUARD SOMEBODY DOING SOMETHING WRONG CAUSE THEY PAY FOR THAT IN THE END AND I THINK AGAIN THE PROGRESSIVE COMPANIES WHO ARE REALLY LOOKING AT THIS CAREFULLY ARE OF COURSE THEY WANT TO KEEP IT IN HOUSE BUT THEY WANT TO CATCH IT EARLY.  THAT’S THE SMARTEST POSSIBLE THING THAT YOU CAN DO IS AGAIN ESPECIALLY FOR A PRIVATE COMPANY WHERE YOU HAVE THE FREEDOM TO DO THAT IS TO MAKE A SAFE ENVIRONMENT FOR PEOPLE TO COME FORWARD IF THERE’S A PROBLEM.  AND MAKE SURE THAT THEY DON’T LOSE THEIR JOBS AND THAT PEOPLE KNOW THAT.

 

PETER: GARY CAN YOU EXPLAIN THE IOWA EXCEPTION TO THE EMPLOYMENT AT WILL STATUS WHERE IOWA HAS ACCEPTED RETALIATORY CONDUCT?

 

GARY:   I’M NOT AN EMPLOYMENT LAWYER BUT I THINK ESSENTIALLY WHAT PETES TALKING ABOUT IS THAT GENERALLY PEOPLE ARE EMPLOYABLE AT WILL AND THEY CAN BE TERMINATED BUT THEN THERE’S THIS EXCEPTION WHICH BASICALLY SAYS THAT IF TERMINATION OF EMPLOYMENT VIOLATES PUBLIC POLICY STANDARDS THEN YOU ARE NOT FREE AS AN EMPLOYER TO TERMINATE SOMEONE AT WILL BUT WE ALL KNOW AS KATHRYN HAS ALLUDED TO THEY’LL FIND SOMETHING THAT YOU WORE A GREEN SHIRT TO WORK ONE DAY AND BY GOLLY THAT’S ENOUGH TO RUN YOUR LITTLE BODY OUT OF THE SHOP SO AND I THINK THAT’S THERE IN WORDS WHETHER AN EMPLOYER IF THEY WANT TO FIND A WAY THEY WILL TRY TO FIND A WAY.  I JUST WANT TO PIGGYBACK ON SOMETHING THAT KATHRYN SAID I’VE BEEN A VOLUNTEER FOR THE AMERICAN CANCER SOCIETY FOR ALMOST THIRTY YEARS AND WITHIN THE LAST THREE OR FOUR YEARS WE’VE ADOPTED A POLICY FOR OUR EMPLOYEES AND OUR STAFF THROUGHOUT THE COUNTRY THAT THEY HAVE A SAFE WAY OF COMPLAINING IF THEY FEEL A SUPERVISORS MISBEHAVE OR MISTREATED A DONOR OR A SERVICE RECIPIENT BECAUSE YOU KNOW IN THAT TYPE OF QUOTE ORGANIZATION, YOUR PUBLIC TRUST IS YOUR CURRENCY AND SO I REALLY APPLAUD THEM I THOUGHT IT WAS A VERY PROGRESSIVE THING TO DO SO I THINK IT’S GETTING MORE AND MORE ACCEPTANCE.

 

I THINK MORE COMPANIES, WHEN THEY SEE THIS WORKS BUT IT REALLY HAS TO BE SOMETHING THAT COMES FROM THE TOP DOWN IS REALLY INTERNALIZED BY THE COMPANY, AND MAKE THAT A VALUE, LET THE EMPLOYEES REALLY KNOW THAT THEY’RE NOT RISKING THEIR JOBS BY BEING HONEST.  OF COURSE YOU HAVE TO HAVE A GOOD INVESTIGATIVE SYSTEM TO MAKE SURE THAT THESE ARE ACCURATE THAT THEY REALLY ARE, EVEN IN BEST CASE, UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCE A WHISTLE BLOWING SITUATION YOU HAVE TO HAVE A GOOD INVESTIGATION TO MAKE SURE THAT THE ALLEGATIONS ARE CORRECT AND IT DOES PROBABLY TAKE A WHILE BUT WHILE YOU’RE DOING THAT YOU HOPE YOU TREAT PEOPLE BETTER THAN YOUR CIRCUMSTANCE.

 

PETER: ISN’T IT REALLY THE IDEALISTIC GOAL THAT WE’RE HOPING THAT EITHER AT A FEDERAL, STATE OR CITY OR EVEN CORPORATE LEVEL THAT THEY ARE CONDUCTING THEIR BUSINESS ETHICALLY?  ISN’T THAT REALLY ALL.

 

EXACTLY AND I MEAN I AGREE, I MEAN I’M IN ACADEMIA SO I CAN LIVE ON MY IVORY TOWER RIGHT?  I THINK WE DO HAVE TO SET A HIGH STANDARD OR AND EVEN IF WE DON’T MEET IT IF WE DON’T SET THAT HIGH STANDARD WE WON’T EVEN COME CLOSE SO AGAIN BUT WE HAVE TO LOOK CLOSELY AT THE WAY THINGS ARE OPERATING AND MAKE SURE THEY OPERATE CORRECTLY.  THAT’S OUR RESPONSIBILITY IN A DEMOCRACY.

 

PETER: IN DOING MY RESEARCH FOR TONIGHTS PROGRAM I LOOKED UP THE ORIGIN OF THE TERM WHISTLE BLOWER AND IT ACTUALLY CAME FROM THE LONDON BOBBY POLICEMEN WHO WHEN THEY SEE A CRIME BEING COMMITTED, THEY REACH IN THEIR POCKET, TAKE OUT A WHISTLE AND START BLOWING IT TO DRAW ATTENTION TO THE CRIME THAT’S TAKING PLACE AND THAT’S WHERE THE TERM CAME FROM.

 

GARY: BETH, IF YOU HAD IT TO DO OVER AGAIN WOULD YOU DO IT?

 

BETH: WELL IF YOU KNOW THAT KIND OF ABUSE IS TAKING PLACE AND YOU DON’T REPORT IT YOU CAN GET INTO TROUBLE BUT I THINK ONE OF THE REASONS THAT I KNEW IT WAS TAKING PLACE THAT I KNEW SOMETHING WAS GOING ON WAS BECAUSE I LIVED IN THE MIDDLE EAST FOR OVER TEN YEARS, I LIVED IN KUWAIT FOR ELEVEN YEARS, I HAD DEALT WITH THIS COMPANY BEFORE, I ACTUALLY SOLD PRODUCTS TO THEM FOR THE RETAIL OUTLETS IN KUWAIT, I KNEW IMMEDIATELY AFTER SEVERAL MEETINGS THAT SOMETHING WASN’T RIGHT.  I HAD IT CONFIRMED BY AN EMPLOYEE THAT WAS NEW THAT TOLD ME THAT MY BID WAS LOWER AND TO WATCH OUT FOR THE OTHER COMPETITION AND EVENTUALLY EVERYTHING I SUSPECTED CAME TO BE TRUE BECAUSE WE HAD SEVERAL INVESTIGATOR JOURNALISTS FROM THE WALL STREET JOURNAL AND UNFORTUNATELY NOT ENOUGH, I HOPE THERE WILL BE MORE WITH TIME, THAT FOUND THAT THE OVERCHARGING WAS IN MILLIONS, LITERALLY MILLIONS AND DESPITE THIS THEY STILL RETAIN THE CONTRACT. 

 

GARY: IS THAT INFORMATION AVAILABLE ON THE FREEDOM OF INFORMATION ACT?  I MEAN I WONDER HOW MUCH, I THINK THERE ARE CERTAIN THINGS YOU CANNOT GET AT BUT.

 

BETH: THERE HAVE BEEN SEVERAL ALLEGATIONS ABOUT MANY DIFFERENT CONTRACTORS DURING THIS WAR, NUMEROUS.  I SUSPECT OVER THE NEXT FEW YEARS WE’LL BE SHOCKED AT WHAT WE LEARN. 

 

PETER: WELL HAVING BEEN IN MILITARY PROCUREMENT FOR A NUMBER OF YEARS THE ONE THING I KNOW ABOUT THE MILITARY MIND WHEN IT’S DOING STUFF LIKE THIS IT SAYS OUR NUMBER ONE GOAL IS TO GET THIS DONE QUICKLY AND THEY DON’T DO THE BIDDING WAR TO GET THE MOST EFFECTIVE PRICE.  I’VE SEEN THAT HAPPEN BECAUSE THEY SACRIFICE THEIR PRICE STRATEGY BECAUSE THEY WANT IT SO FAST. 

 

BETH: WELL ACTUALLY I DID REPORT IT TO THE SPECIAL INSPECTOR GENERAL FOR IRAQ RECONSTRUCTION AND THEY TOLD ME THAT THEY HAD NO WAY OF ACCOUNTING FOR ANY LOSSES AND THAT ESSENTIALLY MY CASE WAS CLOSED AND IF I HAD ANY NEW INFORMATION CALL THEM BACK.  THEY, I DON’T BELIEVE THAT THEY’RE AN EFFECTIVE ORGANIZATION AT ALL AND ANY PRIVATE BUSINESS, IF THEY HAD OPERATED THIS WAY THEY WOULD BE OUT OF BUSINESS BECAUSE NO ONE WOULD BE ALLOWED TO DO THIS AND I THINK THAT THEY KNOW THAT THEY HAVE AN ENORMOUS AMOUNT OF CORRUPTION GOING WITHIN THE PENTAGON, THEY’RE TRYING TO FIX SOME OF IT THEMSELVES AND A LOT OF THESE CONTRACTS ARE ACTUALLY COME UNDER *** WHICH IS OUT OF THE ARSENAL IN ROCK ISLAND AND SO A LOT OF THESE CASES ARE BEING PROSECUTED IN THE STATE OF ILLINOIS AND YOU’LL SEE MORE OF IT.  THEY BROUGHT A LOT OF THE CONTRACTING BACK TO ROCK ISLAND BUT A LOT OF ****** AND THERE WAS A NEST OF CORRUPTION TAKING PLACE THERE.  THERE WERE THREE PEOPLE THAT THREE PEOPLE THAT WERE ACCUSED OF TAKING BRIBES THAT WERE U.S. OFFICERS AND ONE INDIVIDUAL WHO WAS A SUBORDINATE TO ONE OF THOSE OFFICERS AND ALL THREE OF THEM ARE DEAD AND THEY ALSO BUT THE ARMY INVESTIGATORS HAVE STATED SUICIDE BUT I DON’T THINK THAT’S TRUE AND I THINK WE’LL FIND WITH TIME THAT THERE’S SOMETHING MUCH MORE SINISTER GOING ON.

 

GARY: HOW ABOUT THE JIMMY HOFFA STRATEGY IN REPORTING TO THE IRS I MEAN IF YOU HAVE BRIBES AND YOU DON’T REPORT IT AS INCOME THAT’S HAPPENING, THAT’S WHAT FINALLY TOOK JIMMY HOFFA DOWN.  THE IRS WOULD GET AFTER THEM.

 

THEY WERE SO DEPENDENT ON THIS ONE COMPANY THAT THEY JUST DIDN’T I GUESS HOW DO I PHRASE THIS?

 

WELL ACTUALLY THEY FELT SO DEPENDENT ON THIS ONE COMPANY TO GET THOSE SUPPLIES IN THAT THEY JUST DIDN’T FEEL THAT THEY COULD QUESTION THEM THAT THE WHOLE

 

IT WASN’T EVEN THAT IT WAS THAT THIS COMPANY HAD BRIBED PENTAGON OFFICIALS TO OBTAINED PRE BID INFORMATION.

 

OH MY, THAT’S A WHOLE DIFFERENT

 

AND THEIR EMPLOYEES HAVE LEFT THE COMPANY, HAVE LEFT ** STATING THAT THAT THEY HAVE INFORMATION THAT OTHER BIDDERS DID NOT HAVE AND THAT’S ONE WAY THAT THEY HAVE GOTTEN IT AND SECONDLY THAT THEY HAVE OBTAINED IT THROUGH BRIBING OTHER PEOPLE IN THE PENTAGON. 

 

PETER: I THINK WE COULD PROBABLY GO ON FOR PROBABLY ANOTHER HALF AN HOUR OR SO.  ANY FINAL QUICK COMMENTS WE GOT ABOUT ONE MINUTE LEFT, PROFESSOR, ANYTHING?

 

KATHRYN: WELL I GUESS WE JUST WANT TO EMPHASIZE AND I THINK GARY HIT THIS TOO THAT WE HAVE TO BE OPTIMISTIC, WE HAVE TO BE PROUD OF OUR STANDARDS BUT WE HAVE TO BE ETERNALLY VIGILANT AND MAKE SURE THAT THINGS ARE HANDLED CORRECTLY OR THEY JUST WON’T BE.

 

PETER: GARY ANYTHING FINAL?

 

GARY: NO I THINK THE YOU KNOW WHATEVER LEVEL YOU’RE DEALING WHETHER IT’S THE WHISTLE BLOWER LEVEL OR JUST DEALING WITH CUSTOMERS, CLIENTS AND BUSINESS IN GENERAL THE MORE THAT YOU’RE TOTALLY TRANSPARENT THE BETTER OFF YOU’RE GOING TO BE IN THE LONG RUN.

 

PETER: I’M GOING TO TAKE YOUR LAST COMMENT AND SAY THANK YOU FOR DOING WHAT YOU DID.  THANK YOU ALL THIS MORNING, THANK YOU VERY MUCH AND HAVE A BETTER SUNDAY AND HAVE A WONDERFUL WEEK.  THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR JOINING US.  THAT TOOK A LOT OF COURAGE.