PETER:  GOOD MORNING AND WELCOME TO ETHICAL PERSPECTIVES ON THE NEWS.  MY NAME IS PETER WELCH AND I’LL BE THE MODERATOR FOR THIS MORNINGS PROGRAM.  THIS MORNING WE’D LIKE TO VISIT ABOUT WHAT SOME OF US HAVE BEEN RECENTLY READING ABOUT IN THE PAPER ABOUT WHERE A COUNTRY OR SOME OTHER POLITICAL SUB DIVISION HAS QUOTE NATIONALIZED SOME INDUSTRY. IS IT TRUE PATRIOTISM OR IS IT A GRAB FOR POWER UNDER THE GUISE OF TAKING FROM THE RICH AND DISTRIBUTING IT TO THE MASSES?  WITH US THIS MORNING WE FIRST HAVE LYNDA BARROW WHO IS A PROFESSOR OF POLITICAL SCIENCE AT COE COLLEGE HERE IN CEDAR RAPIDS.  ALSO WITH US IS CLAUDIO HILDAGO WHO’S A PROFESSOR OF SPANISH AT KIRKWOOD COMMUNITY COLLEGE.  GOOD MORNING.  IN DOING THE RESEARCH ON THIS TOPIC I FOUND THAT THERE WERE MANY MANY POSSIBLE DEFINITIONS OF NATIONALISM.  WOULD ONE OF YOU CARE TO SHOW OUR VIEWERS OR SHOW WHAT SOME OF THOSE DEFINITIONS COULD BE INTERPRETED AS?

 

LYNDA: I’LL TAKE A FIRST STAB AT IT.  THERE ARE INDEED A LOT OF DIFFERENT DEFINITIONS OF NATIONALISM.  IN LATIN AMERICA THOUGH, NATIONALISM ESPECIALLY HAS TO DO WITH IT’S HISTORY OF FOREIGN INTERVENTION SO IT AROSE AT THE TIME OF LIBERATING THE CONTINENT FROM SPAIN AND PORTUGAL AND SINCE THEN AFTER GAINING INDEPENDENCE THE UNITED STATES HAS HAD A HUGE INFLUENCE ON THE REGION AND SO NATIONALISM IN LATIN AMERICA HAS A LOT TO DO WITH KEEPING FOREIGN INTERFERENCE OUT OF THE REGION.

 

CLAUDIO: AND TO THAT I WOULD LIKE TO ADD THAT THIS IS NOT NECESSARILY A POSITION TAKING BY THE RIGHT OR THE LEFT IN FACT OFTEN IT’S A POSITION SHARED BY BOTH THE LEFT AND THE RIGHT AND EVERY GROUP IN BETWEEN  IN EACH ONE OF THOSE COUNTRIES THROUGHOUT LATIN AMERICA SO IT’S NOT A SIMPLE ISSUE OF WHO’S A NATIONALIST AND WHO’S NOT, IT’S USUALLY A DIFFERENT CONCEPTUALISM OF NATIONALISM WITHIN THE SAME COUNTRY.

 

PETER: AND COULD IT BE SAID THAT WITHIN THE SAME COUNTRY YOU’VE GOT DIFFERENT POLITICAL PARTIES AND EACH OF THEIR DEFINITIONS OF NATIONALISM BE DEPENDENT UPON WHO’S IN POWER?

 

LYNDA: TO SOME EXTENT ALTHOUGH SOME CLEARLY ESPOUSE A MUCH MORE, AN AGENDA THAT’S MUCH MORE NATIONALISTIC ESPECIALLY IN TERMS OF THE ECONOMY SO FOR INSTANCE IN MEXICO IN RECENT ELECTIONS THE CANDIDATE WHO WAS MORE THE LEFTIST CANDIDATE WAS MUCH MORE OF ECONOMIC NATIONALIST PROMISING NOT EVER TO FOR INSTANCE PRIVATIZE THE OIL INDUSTRY.

 

PETER: OK.  NOW THE ONE I THINK MOST OF OUR LISTENERS HAVE SEEN IS SPECIFICALLY IN VENEZUELA AND CAN YOU EXPLAIN A LITTLE BIT OF WHAT HAS GONE ON THERE AND WHY THERE’S A TUSSLE BETWEEN ONE OF OUR UNITED STATES OIL COMPANIES AND THE GOVERNMENT OF VENEZUELA?

 

CLAUDIO: WELL THERE ARE A NUMBER OF ISSUES RIGHT NOW THAT ARE THEY’RE GOING ON IN VENEZUELA.  THIS WEEKEND OF COURSE WE HEARD ABOUT THE CONFLICT WITH COLUMBIA AND ECUADOR.  COLUMBIAN TROOPS WENT OVER THE BORDER ON THE ECUADORIAN SIDE AND ATTACKED A REBEL CAMP, A COLUMBIAN CAMP AND ABOUT 17 PEOPLE DIED INCLUDING ONE OF THE LEADERS OF THE REBEL GROUPS.  AS A REACTION TO THIS THE GOVERNMENT OPENED ** WHICH HAS BEEN COOPERATING WITH THE ECUADORIAN GOVERNMENT RECENTLY, THE VENEZUELAN GOVERNMENT SENT TROOPS TO THE BORDER AND CHAVEZ HAS SPECIFICALLY HAS BEEN VERY CRITICAL OF THIS ACTION ON THE PART OF THE COLUMBIAN GOVERNMENT.  PART OF THE PROBLEM IS THE U.S. GOVERNMENT HAS BEEN SUPPORTING THE COLUMBIAN GOVERNMENT WITH A LOT OF ECONOMIC AID AND MILITARY ADVISE AND THE ACCUSATION ON THE PART OF CHAVEZ IS THAT THE U.S. ENCOURAGED OR MAYBE PUSHED THE COLUMBIAN GOVERNMENT TO TAKE THESE STEPS.  THAT’S ONE ISSUE AND IN ADDITION TO THAT OF COURSE WE HAVE THE CONFLICT BETWEEN EXXON MOBILE IN THE VENEZUELAN GOVERNMENT RECENTLY I THINK THIS CASE WAS TAKEN TO THE COURT ** BY EXXON AND IN THE DISPUTE HERE IS COMPENSATION OR WHETHER THE VENEZUELAN GOVERNMENT HAS THE RIGHT TO ACTUALLY NATIONALIZE OR TO TAKE OVER SOME OF THE OPERATIONS OF EXXON MOBILE.

 

PETER: DIDN’T THE PRESIDENT DEMAND OF ALL THE OIL COMPANIES THAT THEY MUST GIVE A MAJORITY OF THEIR INTERESTS TO THE COUNTRY AND ALL THE OTHER OIL COMPANIES SAID YES AND EXXON MOBIL IS THE ONE THAT SAID NO WE WILL LEAVE AND BUT IF WE LEAVE WE WANT A COMPENSATION?

 

LYNDA: I BELIEVE IT WAS CONOCO PHILLIPS ALSO SAID THAT THEY WANTED MORE COMPENSATION, THERE WAS AN ISSUE WITH THEM.  THAT HASN’T GONE TO THE COURTS YET BUT THERE IS ANOTHER AMERICAN OWNED OIL COMPANY.

 

CLAUDIO: BUT MOST OF THEM BASICALLY THEY DECIDED OK, THIS IS A DIFFICULT CASE AND THEY BECAUSE THIS IS A COMPANY, THEY HAD TO MAKE MONEY SO THEY DID SOME SORT OF COST BENEFIT ANALYSIS AND THEY DECIDED TO MORE OR LESS GO ALONG EVEN THOUGH THEY DIDN’T LIKE THE DECISION.  EXXON AND I THINK IT’S PROBABLY BECAUSE THEY’RE THE LARGEST COMPANY WITH THE LARGEST INVESTMENTS THERE DECIDED TO SEE IF THEY COULD GET A BETTER PERHAPS GET A HIGHER PAYMENT BY GOING TO COURT BUT HISTORICALLY THIS HAS ALWAYS BEEN A VERY PROBLEMATIC WAY OF DOING THINGS BECAUSE THERE IS A LONG HISTORY OF THESE KINDS OF CONFLICTS THROUGHOUT LATIN AMERICA GOING BACK TO THE 20'S AND 30'S IN MEXICO AND IN THE 1930'S NATIONALIZED THE OIL INDUSTRY *** LATER.  IN CHILE WHERE I GROW UP THE COPPER INDUSTRY WAS NATIONALIZED AND ** TO THE LARGEST COPPER MINES, COPPER COMPANIES IN THE WORLD OWNED TWO OF THE LARGEST COPPER FIELDS IN THE WORLD IN CHILE AND IT HAPPENED IN THE 70'S SO WHEN THE CHILEAN GOVERNMENT NATIONALIZED THOSE MINES AGAIN THE COMPANIES CHOSE TO GO TO AN INTERNATIONAL COURT WITH THE SUPPORT OF THE U.S. GOVERNMENT.  THAT’S THE KEY ELEMENT HERE.  EXXON WE I THINK IT WOULD BE FAIR TO ASSUME THAT THEY HAD BEEN TALKING TO THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION THEY HAD BEEN BEFORE THEY HAD MADE SOME OF THOSE DECISIONS HAD TO SAY OK ARE WE GOING TO HAVE THE SUPPORT OF THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION ON THIS AND I ASSUME THE ANSWER WAS YES AND THEREFORE THEY DECIDED TO DO THIS.

 

PETER: LYNDA, IN THE NORMAL WORLD WE WOULD HAVE IN A FREE MARKET PLACE, YOU HAVE A WILLING BUYER AND A WILLING SELLER AND WHEN THAT TRANSACTION TAKES PLACE THEN EVERYBODY SAYS WELL THAT ESTABLISHES A TRUE MARKET VALUE BECAUSE BOTH PARTIES WERE WILLING.  NOW IS THE DIFFERENCE HERE THAT ONE OF THE PARTIES ISN’T WILLING AND THEY’RE BEING TOLD THEY HAVE TO SO THE VALUATION BECOMES MORE POLITICAL IN NATURE?

 

LYNDA: WELL I THINK THAT’S PART OF IT.  WE HAVE HERE A CLASH BASICALLY ECONOMIC NATIONALISM WHICH INVOLVES THE GREATER STATE CONTROL OVER THE ECONOMY AND ECONOMIC RESOURCES IS RUNNING RIGHT UP AGAINST THE WASHINGTON CONSENSUS AND THE U.S. AGENDA ECONOMICALLY IN LATIN AMERICA TO LIBERALIZE THE ECONOMY AND IN TERMS OF THE ECONOMIC NATIONALISM WITH REGARD TO OIL IN VENEZUELA.  THEY’RE SQUEEZING THE OIL COMPANIES THE FOREIGN OIL COMPANIES BOTH IN TERMS OF DENATIONALIZING LIKE YOU SAID MAKING SURE THAT THE VENEZUELANS STATE OWNED COMPANY I THINK IT’S AT LEAST 60% OWNERSHIP IN THESE COMPANIES BUT ALSO IN TERMS OF THE ROYALTIES.  THE TALK OF IMPOSING WINDFALL PROFITS TAX ON THEM SO THEY’RE CUTTING MUCH MORE HEAVILY INTO THE PROFITS OF THE OIL COMPANIES FOR A VERY SIMPLE REASON.  THIS IS HOW THE VENEZUELAN GOVERNMENT FUNDS A LOT OF IT’S SOCIAL PROGRAMS.  IN FACT MONEY IS NOT BEING RE INVESTED IN THE OIL COMPANY AS IT MIGHT BE.  IT’S BEING SIPHONED OFF TO FUND VARIOUS PROGRAMS THAT HUGO CHAVEZ HAS SET UP AND INSTEAD OF PUTTING NEW OIL RIGS IN VENEZUELA HE’S GIVING THEM TO THE NEIGHBORING FRIENDLY COUNTRY OF ECUADOR WHICH IT DOESN’T ALWAYS PLAY WELL.

 

PETER: SO RATHER THAN SUPPORTING THE INFRASTRUCTURE OR THE SOCIAL WELFARE OF THE COUNTRY THAT’S WHY EXXON MOBIL REPORTS THESE EGREGIOUS PROFITS AND SO THE COUNTRY AND THE PEOPLE SAY WELL WHY NOT MORE OF THAT PROFIT HERE RATHER THAN JUST RECORD PROFITS FOR THIS CORPORATION IN AMERICA?

 

LYNDA: WELL, YOU KNOW CHAVEZ IS TALKING ABOUT CREATING 21^ST CENTURY SOCIALISM SO SOCIALISTS OF ANY STRIPE ARE GOING TO BE MORE CONCERNED ABOUT THE DISTRIBUTION OF INCOME AND WEALTH AND TO BELIEVE THAT BIG PROFITS ARE SOMETHING TO BE MORE OR LESS TAPPED BY THE STATE.  ESPECIALLY WHEN IT’S A FOREIGN COMPANY AND YOU CAN BRAND THEM IMPERIALISTS.  THAT SEEMS TO PLAY WELL IN VENEZUELA. 

 

PETER: AMERICANS IN THE ROLE OF IMPERIALISTS, IMAGINE THAT. 

 

CLAUDIO: I THINK LYNDA IS RIGHT THERE.  I THINK IN THE CASE OF RIGHT NOW IN VENEZUELA IF THE CHAVEZ ADMINISTRATION HAS A VERY COMPLEX SITUATION AND THIS IS JUST ONE PART OF IT, VERY COMPLICATED SITUATION.  THIS IS THEY BASICALLY NEED MORE REVENUE.  THE GOVERNMENT IS OVEREXTENDED BECAUSE THEY HAVE A VERY AMBITIOUS DOMESTIC AGENDA WHICH INCLUDES ALL SORTS OF FREE EDUCATION, MEDICAL CARE, BUILDING THE INFRASTRUCTURE ESPECIALLY IN THOSE AREAS OF THE COUNTRY IN CARACAS SPECIFICALLY WHERE PREVIOUS GOVERNMENTS HAVEN’T REALLY DONE MUCH.  THAT’S HALF OF IT.  THE OTHER HALF IS THAT BECAUSE OF CHAVEZ PARTICULAR SITUATION AND HIS CONFLICT WITH THE U.S. IN PARTICULAR, HE AND HIS PEOPLE HAVE HAD IT VERY AGGRESSIVE FOREIGN POLICY AND IN THE CASE OF ECUADOR THEY ACTUALLY ARE HELPING THE ECUADORIANS EXPLORE AND BEGIN TO PRODUCE SOME OIL THEMSELVES.  THEY ALREADY HAVE SOME FIELDS BUT THEY TO ADD TO THAT.  IN THE CASE OF NICARAGUA I’VE HEARD SOMEWHERE THAT THEY ARE ALSO HELPING WITH THAT SUBSIDIZING SOME OF THE OIL THAT IS GOING TO NICARAGUA WITH THE ARGENTINIAN GOVERNMENT.  THEY BOUGHT PART OF THE ARGENTINIAN DEBT AND IN THE CASE OF BOLIVIA THEY ALSO DID, THEY ARE HELPING WITH THE DEBT SITUATION IN THOSE TWO COUNTRIES.  SO PART OF THE REASON THAT CHAVEZ AND MY UNDERSTANDING HE’S DOING ALL OF THIS HE’S TRYING TO BUY ESSENTIALLY SUPPORT, INTERNATIONAL SUPPORT IN THIS CONFLICT WITH THE U.S. AND WE HAVE TO REMEMBER THAT CHAVEZ WAS ALMOST OVERTHROWN IN 2004 FOR 2 DAYS HE WAS HELD BY SECTIONS OF THE ARMY AND THE PRESIDENT **** AND THERE IS FAIRLY GOOD EVIDENCE THAT THE U.S. HAD KNOWLEDGE OF THIS AND RIGHT AWAY THE U.S. GOVERNMENT RECOGNIZED THIS NEW PRESIDENT AND OBVIOUSLY THE U.S. GOVERNMENT WOULD LIKE TO SEE CHAVEZ GO.  CHAVEZ IN THIS COMPETITION WITH THE U.S. HAS A LOT OF BALLS IN THE AIR AND ONE OF THEM IS THIS HAS PUT THIS ADMINISTRATION IN A VERY DIFFICULT SITUATION.  EVEN THOUGH THE PRICE OF OIL HAS GONE UP SIGNIFICANTLY IN VENEZUELA IS RECEIVING HUGE REVENUES BECAUSE OF THIS OIL AND DEMAND HAS OF COURSE INCREASED IN THE PAST 4 OR 5 YEARS IN PART BECAUSE OF THE DECLINE IN PRODUCTION IN THE MIDDLE EAST IN IRAQ SPECIFICALLY BUT ALSO BECAUSE OF THE INCREASE IN DEMAND IN CHINA AND INDIA.  THAT PART YOU KNOW VENEZUELA HAS BEEN ABLE TO SELL A LOT OF OIL AT A VERY HIGH PRICE BUT AT THE SAME TIME CHAVEZ HAS BEEN EXPANDING DOMESTICALLY AND INTERNATIONALLY AND ESSENTIALLY THEY NEED MORE REVENUE AND SO WHEN YOU’RE FACED WITH A SITUATION LIKE THIS YOU LOOK AROUND AND YOU SAY WELL, IT LOOKS LIKE THESE OIL COMPANIES ARE NOT PAYING A FAIR PRICE FOR THIS. 

 

PETER: SO HAS HE INFLUENCED PEDDLING WITH THE NATURAL RESOURCES THAT VENEZUELA IS SUPPLYING THE WORLD?  IS HE BEATING US AT OUR OWN GAME?

 

LYNDA: HE IS PLAYING THE OIL CARD, YES. WITH REGARD TO CUBA, WITH REGARD TO RUSSIA, WITH REGARD TO VARIOUS OTHER COUNTRIES ALTHOUGH YOU KNOW IT WAS A COUPLE OF WEEKS AGO OR A FEW WEEKS AGO THAT HE THREATENED TO TURN OFF THE OIL SPIGOT TO THE UNITED STATES AND THEN HE PRETTY QUICKLY BACKED OFF BECAUSE YOU CAN YOU KNOW TO SOME EXTENT CALL HIS BLUFF ON THAT.  VENEZUELA IS MORE DEPENDENT ON THE BILATERAL RELATIONSHIP WITH THE UNITED STATES THAN THE UNITED STATES IS DEPENDENT ON IT.  BECAUSE THE UNITED STATES IMPORTS MORE THAN HALF OF THE OIL THAT VENEZUELA EXPORTS AND IT’S HEAVY OIL WHICH CANNOT BE REFINED EVERYWHERE IN THE WORLD.  IF INDEED VENEZUELA FOLLOWED THROUGH ON THAT THREAT THE UNITED STATES WOULD HAVE AN EASIER JOB OF FINDING ALTERNATIVE SOURCES THAN VENEZUELA WOULD HAVE IN TERMS OF FINDING ALTERNATIVE OUTLETS.  BUT SOME CRITICS OR COMMENTATORS OF HUGO CHAVEZ AND IT’S HARD TO FIND PEOPLE WHO ARE NEUTRAL WITH REGARD TO HIM, THEY SUGGEST THAT ACTUALLY HE THRIVES ON CONFLICT.  WHETHER IT’S PLAYING UP ELEMENTS OF CONFLICT AT HOME OR ESPECIALLY CONFLICT WITH THE UNITED STATES AND SORT OF TRASHING THE SUPER POWER, THAT SEEMS TO HELP HIM IN TERMS OF POLARIZING VENEZUELAN SOCIETY AND ALSO IN TERMS OF PERHAPS TURNING PEOPLES ATTENTION AWAY FROM THE FACT THAT THERE ARE SOME FUNDAMENTAL PROBLEMS IN VENEZUELA THAT HE IS REALLY NOT DEALING WITH.  RAMPANT CRIME, THE OUTBREAK OF DENELUGE FEVER, YOU KNOW, POVERTY WHICH STILL REMAINS ENTRENCHED.  AND THE FACT THAT HE DOESN’T SEEM TO BE AS VENEZUELANS SAY, SELLING THE OIL IN A WAY THAT’S GOING TO BE SUSTAINABLE OVER THE LONG TERM.  IN OTHER WORDS, HE’S AT LEAST CRITICIZED FOR THE KIND OF GEARING PROGRAMS TOWARD HIS POLITICAL FRIENDS RATHER THAN CREATING PROGRAMS THAT ARE NECESSARILY GOING TO HELP VENEZUELA DEVELOP OVER THE LONGER TERM. 

 

PETER: TO PARAPHRASE YOUR COMMENT LYNDA I THINK THERE’S A FEW PEOPLE AROUND HERE THAT ALSO THRIVE ON CONFLICT.  HAVEN’T THERE ALSO BEEN OTHER COUNTRIES THAT HAVE NATIONALIZED, YOU TALKED IN CENTRAL AMERICA, SOUTH AMERICA.

 

CLAUDIO: BASICALLY THROUGHOUT LATIN AMERICA THAT’S THE CASE.  THERE’S A LONG TRADITION IN LATIN AMERICA.  THERE’S SOME ** OR PRINCIPLES, INTERNATIONAL LAW PRINCIPLES THAT LITTLE BY LITTLE HAVE BECOME ACCEPTED THROUGHOUT THE WORLD BUT WERE AT FIRST PROPOSED IN LATIN AMERICA AND THERE’S AN OLD IDEA WHICH IS MORE OR LESS ACCEPTED THROUGHOUT LATIN AMERICA BY ALL GROUPS THAT ANYTHING UNDERGROUND BELONGS TO THE NATION.  ANY NATURAL RESOURCES, UNDERGROUND BELONG TO THE NATION AND SO IF SOMEBODY OWNS A PIECE OF LAND, A FARM LET’S SAY AND OIL IS FOUND UNDERGROUND THAT OIL DOESN’T BELONG TO THE OWNER OF THE FARM BUT IT BELONGS TO THE NATION.  THEN THE NATION THEN OR THE GOVERNMENT CAN THEN NEGOTIATE SOME SORT OF AGREEMENT WITH COMPANIES OR MAYBE CREATE ITS OWN NATIONAL COMPANY TO EXPLORE THOSE RESOURCES.  THIS IS A VIEW WHICH IS VERY POPULAR THROUGHOUT LATIN AMERICA, IT’S VERY DIFFICULT EVEN FOR VERY CONSERVATIVE, VERY PRO PRIVATE ENTERPRISE GROUPS AND TO TAKE A POSITION AGAINST THIS WELL ACCEPTED POSITION THAT NATURAL RESOURCES BELONG TO THE NATION NOT TO INDIVIDUALS.

 

PETER: BUT SHOULDN’T THE LAND OWNER GET SOMETHING, MAYBE NOT ALL BUT SOMETHING?

 

CLAUDIO: RIGHT.  OFTEN THEY DO BUT THE PRINCIPAL IS OFTEN WHERE AND SOMETIMES WE HAVE SEEN THAT THEN THE RESOURCES HAVE BEEN ESPECIALLY BACK IN THE 1920'S 30'S THEY USUALLY U.S. COMPANIES WOULD HAVE TO COME IN BECAUSE THEY HAD THE TECHNOLOGY AND THEY AND THE CAPITAL TO GET THE STUFF OUT OF THE GROUND.  BUT ONCE THE GOVERNMENTS OF THESE COUNTRIES BECAME A LITTLE BIT MORE COMFORTABLE, THEY UNDERSTOOD THE BUSINESS ALSO THEY TRAINED BECAUSE THEY TEACH A LOT OF WELL TRAINED PEOPLE TO MANAGE THIS FIELD OR THIS MINES, THIS COMPANIES AND THAT USUALLY HAPPENED IN MEXICO IN THE 30'S BUT IN CHILE BY THE 60'S 70'S WE HAD ENOUGH ENGINEERS, WE HAD ENOUGH PEOPLE PREPARED TO DO THIS.  THAT’S THE CASE IN VENEZUELA.  VENEZUELA FEELS THEY MORE OR LESS HAVE THE PEOPLE THEY NEED TO RUN THESE COMPANIES.  WHERE THEY ARE LACKING IS IN SOME OF THE NEW TECHNOLOGY TO ESPECIALLY TO PROCESS SOME OF THIS LESS CLEAN OIL THAT VENEZUELA.

 

PETER: THAT’S A DIFFERENT CONCEPT WHEN YOU CONSIDER THAT ONE OF THE FOUNDING THINGS IN OUR COUNTRY WHERE THE CALIFORNIA GOLD RUSH WHERE ALL THE INDIVIDUALS WOULD GO OUT THERE AND STAKE A CLAIM WHAT THEY DUG UP WAS THEIR OWN AND IT MADE SOME, IT WASN’T GOING TO THE GOVERNMENT BUT IT’S AN INTERESTING CONTRAST WHEN YOU LOOK AT IT THAT WAY BETWEEN THE WAY WE OPERATE AND THEY OPERATE. 

 

LYNDA: BUT AGAIN I THINK WE HAVE TO REMEMBER THAT IN LATIN AMERICA IT’S THE SPECTER OF FOREIGN COMPANIES COMING IN, IN MEXICO, IN CHILE, IN VENEZUELA AND HAVING PERHAPS A CONTROLLING ROLE WITH REGARD TO THOSE KEY NATURAL RESOURCES.  THAT’S AN IMPORTANT FACTOR.  ANOTHER FACTOR TO BRING UP THOUGH IS THAT CERTAINLY LIBERALS WOULD ARGUE THAT STATES HAVE NOT PROVEN PARTICULARLY ADEPT AT MANAGING THESE RESOURCES.

 

PETER: THEY ARE NOT THE BEST STEWARDS OF THE

 

LYNDA: PERHAPS NOT.  THEY OFTEN ATTRACTS WHEN YOU HAVE A LOT, AN ABUNDANT RESOURCE LIKE OIL IT MAY WELL ATTRACT CORRUPTION.  IT OFTEN IS SAID TO BE PROBLEMATIC WITH REGARD TO SUSTAINING DEMOCRACY BECAUSE WHAT COUNTRIES LIKE VENEZUELA AND MEXICO DO THEY’RE OIL EXPORTERS IS THAT MEANS THAT THE OIL FUNDS SO MUCH OF THEIR GOVERNMENT THAT THEY DON’T HAVE TO TAX THEIR CITIZENS AS MUCH AND WHEN CITIZENS AREN’T BEING TAXED THEN THEY DON’T TEND TO BE VERY GOOD WATCHDOGS IN TERMS OF WHAT THEIR GOVERNMENT IS DOING WITH THE MONEY AND SO GOVERNMENTS TEND NOT TO BE AS ACCOUNTABLE AND OF COURSE IN A DEMOCRACY THAT’S A PROBLEM.  YOU NEED TO HOLD GOVERNMENTS ACCOUNTABLE.

 

CLAUDIO: THE CONTRARY ARGUMENT TO THAT AND OF COURSE IN LATIN AMERICA THIS GOES BACK AND FORTH CONSTANTLY I MEAN THIS HAS LONG DISCUSSIONS LIKE ONGOING DISCUSSIONS IS THAT PRIVATE COMPANIES THEY ARE THERE TO SERVE THE INTERESTS OF THEIR HOLDERS AND SO A COMPANY COMES IN, THEY TAKE THE OIL OUT, THEY NEGOTIATE A DEAL, THEY ALWAYS SEEM TO BE ABLE TO NEGOTIATE GOOD DEALS AND SO WHATEVER LEFT FOR THE COUNTRY IS A BIG HOLE IN THE GROUND AND VERY LITTLE PROFIT.  SO VERY FEW PEOPLE BENEFIT FROM THAT EITHER EVEN THOUGH THE COMPANIES BECOME VERY RICH AS A RESULT BECAUSE THEY ARE RUNNING THESE PLACES VERY EFFICIENTLY.  THE COUNTRIES STILL DON’T BENEFIT FROM THAT.  WE CAN LOOK AT THIS HISTORICALLY IN EACH CASE WE CAN SAY WELL IN THIS CASE VENEZUELA DID BENEFIT AND WE CAN MAKE A LIST OF THAT AND I THINK WE COULD DO THAT.  IN THE CASE OF CHILE WE COULD ALSO DO THAT.  THE PROBLEM IS THAT GOVERNMENTS GET GOVERNMENTS ARE GOING TO BE ** NOT ONLY BY ECONOMIC CRITERIA, WHETHER THEY MAKE MONEY OR NOT, WHETHER THEY BALANCE THE BUDGET OR NOT BUT MANY MANY OTHER ISSUES ESPECIALLY IN THE DEVELOPING COUNTRY AND SO THE SAD THING IN A WAY IS IN A VERY COMPLICATED SITUATION BECAUSE OF THAT.  BECAUSE ON ONE HAND HE HAS THE FOREIGN CONFLICT GOING ON.  WITHIN THE COUNTRY HE HAS RAISED EXPECTATIONS TREMENDOUSLY THAT’S ONE BIG PROBLEM AND AT THE SAME TIME BECAUSE HE HAS TRIED VERY HARD TO REDISTRIBUTE WEALTH THROUGHOUT THE COUNTRY VERY QUICKLY.  THINGS THAT NORMALLY WOULD TAKE DECADES HE HAS TRIED TO DO IN A COUPLE OF YEARS BUT THAT ALSO HAS CREATED INFLATION.  IT HAS CREATED CHAOS IN MANY CASES.  THEY’RE HAVING A VERY HARD TIME PROVIDING FOR EVERYBODY YOU KNOW PRODUCING ENOUGH FOOD FOR EVERYBODY BECAUSE IN ADDITION TO INCREASING DEMAND BY GIVING MORE INCOME TO THE LOWER CLASSES HE HAS ALSO INSTITUTED PRICE CONTROLS.  OF COURSE THE PRODUCERS OF MANY OF HIS PRODUCTS ARE NOT WILLING TO PRODUCE AT THAT PRICE BECAUSE THEY LOSE MONEY.  THERE ARE MANY CASES WHERE THE STUFF HAS BEEN MOVING TO COLUMBIA BECAUSE IN COLUMBIA PEOPLE PAY MORE FOR SOME OF THESE FOOD.  SO IF HE HAS ALL ** GOING ON AT THE SAME TIME THAT HE HAS AN INTERNATIONAL SITUATION WHICH IS NOW VERY ** THEN THERE’S HIS PERSONALITY I MEAN HE IS A VERY SPECIAL TYPE OF POLITICIAN.  HE UP UNTIL NOW HAS BEEN VERY SUCCESSFUL SORT OF GOING TO A BREAK AND THEN WE’LL BE BACK.  HE WILL USE THAT VERY SUCCESSFULLY BUT I WANT TO SAY THAT IN MANY COUNTRIES THROUGHOUT LATIN AMERICA HE’S NOT, HE’S PERCEIVED AS SOMEBODY WHO CAN BE POTENTIALLY DANGEROUS AND

 

PETER: IS THAT CALLED A BRINKMANSHIP STYLE?

 

CLAUDIO: HE HAS A STYLE AND IT HAS WORKED FOR HIM AT LEAST UP UNTIL NOW.  THAT’S WHY AT THE FAMOUS SPEECH AT THE U.N. WHERE HE WENT TO THE UNITED NATIONS, HE QUOTED AND HE HAD A BOOK BY *** FAMOUS LINGUIST FROM MIT, AMERICAN, WHO VERY CRITICAL OF U.S. FOREIGN POLICY AND SO CHAVEZ WENT TO THE U.N., SHOWED THE BOOK, QUOTED THE BOOK AND CALLED BUSH THE DEVIL.   THROUGHOUT THE WORLD THAT WAS SHOWN THROUGHOUT THE WORLD, MANY PEOPLE, BUSH IS NOT A POPULAR PRESIDENT BY ANY MEANS ANYWHERE OUTSIDE THE U.S. AND SO PEOPLE LOOK AT THAT BUT THEY ALSO LOOK AT CHAVEZ AND THOUGHT IS THIS MAN CRAZY, WHAT IS HE DOING.  IS HE, WHY IS HE DOING THIS I MEAN YOU MAY THINK SOMETHING LIKE THAT BUT YOU DON’T GO TO THE UNITED NATIONS AND SAY THINGS LIKE THAT SO HE’S NOT SEEN NECESSARILY AS A LEADER THROUGHOUT LATIN AMERICA.  I KNOW IN CHILE ARGENTINA IN PARTICULAR WHICH THAT HAVE DEMOCRATIC COUNTRIES HAVE LONG DEMOCRATIC TRADITIONS SOMEBODY LIKE CHAVEZ IS PERCEIVED AS BEING A LITTLE BIT TOO OVERCONFIDENT.  MAY BE INTERESTING TO WATCH SOMETIMES BUT SOMEONE YOU WOULDN’T WANT TO HAVE IN YOUR OWN POLITICAL ENVIRONMENT.

 

PETER: SO, HE’S INTERESTING AND HE’S ENTERTAINING BUT DON’T LET HIM TAKE CONTROL OF YOUR OWN PIECE OF THE BUSINESS.

 

CLAUDIO: RIGHT.  I THINK IN THE CARIBBEAN BECAUSE YOU KNOW HE IS FROM VENEZUELA WHICH IS IN SOUTH AMERICA BUT ALSO FACES THE CARIBBEAN AND THERE IS SOME CULTURAL AND HISTORICAL REASONS FOR THIS AND THIS IS MORE OF A CARIBBEAN POLITICAL STYLE THAT I THINK IS SIMILAR TO CASTRO OF COURSE AND CUBA AND TO A LESSER DEGREE IN ** AND PEOPLE IN OTHER PARTS OF LATIN AMERICA CLOSE MORE TO THE SOUTH HOPING WE’LL FIND THIS STYLE ENTERTAINING BUT NOT NECESSARILY VERY SERIOUS AND ONE THEY PERCEIVE AS DANGEROUS.  THAT’S NOT HOW YOU DEAL IN THE INTERNATIONAL ARENA AT LEAST THAT’S THE PERCEPTION.  BUT WE’LL HAVE TO SEE.

 

LYNDA: I WAS JUST GOING TO ADD GOING BACK TO THAT QUESTION OF NATIONALISM.  CHAVEZ OBVIOUSLY SEES HIMSELF IN THE MOLD OF SIMON BOLIVAR AS BEING SORT OF A PANNED LATIN AMERICAN NATIONALIST OR PANNED LATIN AMERICAN LEADER TRYING TO UNITE THE PEOPLES OF LATIN AMERICA AS AGAINST TO A LARGE EXTENT OUTSIDE FORCES ESPECIALLY THE UNITED STATES, SERVE AS A COUNTER WEIGHT TO THE UNITED STATES.

 

PETER: AND HE’S USING THE TERRITORY OR THAT SOUTH AMERICAN CENTRAL AMERICAN DRAW AS GET BEHIND MY BANNER TYPE?

 

LYNDA: YEAH.  VENEZUELA IS NOT A LARGE ENOUGH PLATFORM FOR HIM. 

 

CLAUDIO: WELL HE HAS OIL.  HE HAS BEEN ABLE TO USE THAT I THINK TO A POINT.  UP UNTIL NOW.  I THINK RIGHT NOW HE IS RUNNING OUT OF MONEY AND SO IN ARGENTINA FOR INSTANCE HE WAS ABLE TO SET UP A SPECIAL RELATIONSHIP AND IN BOLIVIA AND IN ECUADOR IN THIS CASE BUT VENEZUELA IS NOT A BIG ENOUGH COUNTRY IN LATIN AMERICA.  AND ALSO IN OTHER PLACES LET’S SAY BRAZIL, MEXICO, TOO MUCH BIGGER COUNTRIES EVEN THAN ARGENTINA.  IN A COUNTRY LIKE CHILE WHICH IS PERHAPS IN TERMS OF POPULATION SMALLER BUT IN MANY WAYS IN ALL THE COUNTRY WITH A LARGER LONG OLDER DEMOCRATIC TRADITION SORT OF INTERNATIONAL STATURE THEY’RE STATUS HAS A LOT LESS INFLUENCE I THINK.

 

PETER: WE’RE QUICKLY RUNNING OUT OF TIME.  CLAUDIO I WANT TO THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR JOINING US THIS MORNING, LYNDA AND FOR ALL YOU VIEWERS THANK YOU FOR JOINING US ON THIS SUNDAY MORNING AND KEEP WATCHING, STAY SAFE.