ETHICAL PERSPECTIVES ON THE NEWS IS PRODUCED BY THE INTER-RELIGIOUS COUNCIL OF LINN COUNTY WHICH IS SOLELY RESPONSIBLE FOR ITS CONTENT.  THE VIEWS AND OPINIONS EXPRESSED ON THIS PROGRAM DO NOT NECESSARILY REFLECT THOSE OF THE STAFF AND MANAGEMENT OF KCRG-TV 9. 

 

GOOD MORNING AND WELCOME TO ETHICAL PERSPECTIVES ON THE NEWS.  MY NAME IS MARY DUCEY AND I TEACH PHILOSOPHY AT MOUNT MERCY COLLEGE.  AROUND THE BEGINNING OF MAY, THE GAZETTE AND MOST OTHER NEWSPAPERS AROUND THE COUNTRY REPORTED ON THE RESULTS OF A SURVEY OF MILITARY TROOPS IN IRAQ CONDUCTED BY THE DEFENSE DEPARTMENT TO FIND OUT WHAT THEY WOULD DO IN SITUATIONS THAT CALLED FOR SERIOUS ETHICAL DECISION MAKING.  UNITS EXPOSED TO THE MOST COMBAT WERE CHOSEN FOR THE STUDY. THE RESULTS SHOWED THAT TEN PERCENT REPORTED PERSONALLY ABUSING IRAQI CIVILIANS.  FORTY PERCENT SUPPORT THE USE OF TORTURE.  AND ONLY AROUND HALF WOULD REPORT A UNIT MEMBER FOR KILLING AN INNOCENT NON-COMBATANT.  FEWER THAN HALF OF THE SOLDIERS SAID THAT THEY WOULD REPORT A UNIT MEMBER FOR VIOLATING THE RULES OF ENGAGEMENT.  A SECURITY THINK TANK ANALYST SAID, AND THIS IS QUOTED IN THE ARTICLE, “IT IS DISAPPOINTING, BUT ANYBODY WHO IS SURPRISED BY IT DOESN’T UNDERSTAND WAR. THIS IS ABOUT COMBAT STRESS,” UNQUOTE.  SO HOW ARE WE TO UNDERSTAND THESE NEWS FINDINGS - DOES COMBAT STRESS EXCUSE ETHICAL VIOLATIONS?  AND WHAT CAN BE DONE TO IMPROVE THE SITUATION?

 

THREE PANELISTS WITH A LOT OF EXPERIENCE IN THESE AREAS HAVE JOINED US THIS MORNING TO DISCUSS THESE QUESTIONS.  GENTLEMEN, THANK YOU FOR BEING WITH US TODAY.  FIRST, TO MY LEFT, WE HAVE STAFF SERGEANT PETER MARTIN, WHO EIGHT MONTHS AGO RETURNED FROM A YEAR’S SERVICE IN IRAQ AND RETURNED TO HIS JOB AT ROCKWELL COLLINS AND HIS FAMILY.  WE’RE GLAD TO HAVE YOU WITH US.

 

MARTIN: RIGHT.  AND I’M GLAD TO BE BACK.  IT WAS A GOOD HOMECOMING AND THE TIME THAT I SPENT OVER IN IRAQ WAS LONG AND ARDUOUS, BUT AS THE DAYS GOT CLOSER TO RETURNING, IT SEEMED LIKE THE DAYS TURNED LONGER, BUT IT WAS A GREAT HOMECOMING.

 

DUCEY: GREAT.  WELCOME BACK.  NEXT WE HAVE JACK BAKER WHO IS A PSYCHOLOGIST HERE IN TOWN AND HAS BEEN ON OUR SHOW BEFORE, AND JACK SPECIALIZES IN POST TRAUMATIC STRESS DISORDER.

 

BAKER: I HAVE, YES.

 

DUCEY: SO THANK YOU FOR BEING WITH US.

 

BAKER: I’VE SEEN THEM FROM WORLD WAR TWO UP.

 

DUCEY: AND LAST BUT NOT LEAST, WE HAVE LIEUTENANT COLONEL CHUCK WIENEKE WHO IS RETIRED FROM THE AIR FORCE AND IS A VIETNAM VETERAN.  THANKS FOR BEING WITH US.  AND ANOTHER ONE-TIME GUEST ON OUR SHOW AT LEAST,  RIGHT?

 

WIENEKE: OH, NO - THIS I THINK THE FOURTH TIME I’VE ACTUALLY BEEN ON - ON DIFFERENT TOPICS, USUALLY WITH MILITARY QUESTIONS INVOLVED.

 

DUCEY: OUR GO-TO GUY.

 

WIENEKE: OH, NO, I WOULDN’T SAY THAT.

 

DUCEY: THAT’S GREAT.  THANK YOU ALL.  THIS IS KIND OF A SERIOUS TOPIC.  IT’S DIFFICULT, AS I WAS PREPARING FOR THIS, IT’S DIFFICULT, AND ESPECIALLY FOR YOU GUYS THAT HAVE BEEN THERE.  SO WE’LL SEE WHAT WE CAN DO.

 

DUCEY:  CHUCK, WHY DON’T WE START WITH YOU.  DO THESE FINDINGS SURPRISE YOU WHEN YOU READ SOMETHING LIKE THIS?

 

WIENEKE: IF I JUST LOOK AT JUST THE FIGURES THAT ARE REPORTED, I WOULD ADMIT IT WOULD SURPRISE ME A BIT.  BUT IT’S MUCH LIKE ANY SURVEY.  I WOULD KNOW BETTER HOW MUCH CREDIBILITY TO PUT WITH THE EXACT NUMBERS THAT THEY GAVE IF I COULD REALLY SEE WHAT THE QUESTION, HOW EXACTLY THEY WERE TERMED.  I DID NOT TAKE PART IN THE LAST, THE ONE ONGOING NOW, BUT I WAS OVER DURING GULF WAR ONE.  AND OF COURSE, THINGS HAVE CHANGED, THE YEARS HAVE GONE BY AND WE ARE NOT IN THE SAME SITUATION NOW, AND WE HAVEN’T BEEN LIVING THROUGH IT LIKE WE DID THERE.  WE WENT IN.  MISSION WAS ACCOMPLISHED.  WE CAME OUT.  AND BECAUSE IT WAS JUST TO GET THE IRAQIS OUT OF KUWAIT, SO TO SPEAK.

 

DUCEY: SO THERE’S NOT THIS ONGOING -

 

WIENEKE: IT’S NOT THE ONGOING THING, WHICH MUST BE REMEMBERED WHEN WE TALK, IS IT CAUSED BY COMBAT STRESS - THAT I AM SURE IN MY OPINION THAT WILL BE PART OF IT, BUT I THINK IT’S MORE AN ETHICS QUESTION, HAS COME UP AS AN ETHICS QUESTION JUST BECAUSE NOW IT’S BEEN FOUR YEARS AND GOING.  AND IT SEEMS THAT THEY HEAR A LOT OF STUFF BACK HOME.  AND SOME OF THE THINGS I’D SAY AS WE GET ON A LITTLE BIT, I’D LIKE TO HEAR MYSELF THE OPINIONS OF THE OTHER FOLKS.

 

DUCEY: YES.  DO THESE FINDINGS SURPRISE YOU?

 

MARTIN: THE NUMBERS, THE SHEER NUMBERS SEEMS TO ME A LITTLE SHOCKING TO MYSELF BECAUSE I KNOW THAT - WELL NOW, I WASN’T IN A COMBAT UNIT OVER THERE, I WAS IN A  SUPPORT UNIT.  WE DROVE HEAVY EQUIPMENT OVER THERE ON THE ROADS DELIVERING EQUIPMENT AND SUPPLIES, AND PRETTY MUCH WE WERE BRIEFED VERY, VERY WELL EVERY TIME WE WENT ON MISSION, WHICH WAS OFTEN.  I WENT - OUR UNIT HAD 250 MISSIONS OUT OF 355 DAYS THERE.  SO WE WERE PRETTY STRESSED OUT, AND YOU KNOW THE DAILY PREPARATION AND EVERYTHING.  YOU’VE GOT TO UNDERSTAND THAT WE’RE PRETTY TIRED MOST OF THE TIME.  SO I THINK LIKE CHUCK SAID I THINK YOU HAVE TO LOOK AT WHAT KIND OF QUESTIONS WERE ASKED AND THOSE KIND OF THINGS.  BECAUSE I KNOW THAT IN MY UNIT WE WERE WELL-BRIEFED.  WE HAD TO HAVE POSITIVE IDENTIFICATION BEFORE WE ENGAGED A TARGET.  WE HAD TO -

 

DUCEY: POSITIVE IDENTIFICATION AS TO WHETHER THIS WAS REALLY THE ENEMY OR WHETHER IT WAS -

 

MARTIN: RIGHT.  THE OBJECTIVE WAS NOT TO FIRE INDISCRIMINATELY AT CIVILIANS, AT OBJECTS,  BUILDINGS OR THOSE KIND OF THINGS.  SO PRETTY MUCH, I WOULD SAY THAT MY EXPERIENCE IS THAT A STRESS LEVEL PROBABLY NOT AS HIGH AS A COMBAT UNIT WHERE THEY’RE IN A CLOSE FIGHT WITH THE ENEMY.  AND MY SITUATION WOULD BE MORE REMOVED FROM AN ENEMY CONFRONTATION.

 

DUCEY: THIS SURVEY WAS CONDUCTED BY THE PENTAGON ITSELF, SO YOU WOULD THINK THAT THEY WOULDN’T WANT TO MAKE THE NUMBERS LOOK BAD - RIGHT?

 

BAKER: FOR THE VIEWERS AND OTHERS WHO ARE  INTERESTED, IT’S QUITE EASY TO DRAW THIS UP ON THE INTERNET.  I FOUND IT - A MENTAL HEALTH ADVISORY TEAM - JUST LOOK UNDER GOOGLE COMBAT ETHICS OR COMBAT STRESS OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT.  AND THEY COME UP WITH THIS ONE PARTICULAR THING, AND THEY DO - IT WAS A CONTROLLED STUDY STATISTICALLY DONE.  THEY HAVE THE QUESTIONS IN THERE AND HOW THEY ASKED THEM TO - IT’S IN THERE.  AND GENERAL CASEY WHO IS A FIELD COMMANDER, HE ORDERED THIS STUDY TO BE DONE.  AND SO IT WAS DONE OVER I THINK A TWO-YEAR PERIOD IF I REMEMBER -

 

DUCEY: IT WAS A WHOLE SERIES OF STUDIES DONE TO HELP -

 

BAKER:    YEAH, SO IT WASN’T JUST ONE QUESTION, BUT IT  WAS ASKED BASICALLY OF SOLDIERS AND MARINES.  THEY ASKED IT OF PEOPLE THAT HAD TO HANDLE BODIES, THE PEOPLE WHO WERE ACTUALLY IN THE FIGHT EVERY DAY, THE ASKED THE AUXILIARY PEOPLE - SO IT WAS A WIDE-RANGING STUDY.  AND THEY FOUND THAT THERE WAS SOME VERY INTERESTING THINGS THAT CAME OUT ABOUT IT.  ONE OF THE MOST INTERESTING THINGS I FOUND WAS THEY HAVE NEVER DONE ANY OF THESE STUDIES SINCE WORLD WAR TWO.  THEY DID NOTHING.  FROM VIETNAM TO THE GULF OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT. AND ALL OF A SUDDEN NOW THEY DECIDE THAT THEY’RE GOING TO - MAYBE WE SHOULD STUDY AND SEE WHAT’S GOING ON OUT THERE BECAUSE THEY WE’RE GETTING SO MANY COMPLAINTS.   BUT THEY HAD DONE NOTHING.  EVEN PTSD ITSELF, THE HISTORY OF IT, YOU CAN ONLY GO -

 

DUCEY: POST-TRAUMATIC STRESS DISORDER, FOR THOSE WHO AREN’T EXPERTS.

 

BAKER: IT’S ABOUT BEING SCARED OF SOMETHING, AND SOMETHING FRIGHTENING YOU AND YOU HAVING A TERRIBLE REACTION TO IT.  AND YOU CAN LOOK THAT UP TOO, IT’S VERY INTERESTING.  BUT YOU KNOW WE GOT MORE PLAY IN THE PSYCHOLOGY WORLD AFTER VIETNAM.  AND THOSE GUYS ARE STILL POPPING UP OUT OF THE WOODWORK.  AND I’VE EVEN HAD SOME WORLD WAR TWO GUYS NOW, AND THEY’RE IN THEIR 70'S AND 80'S, WHO ARE POPPING UP AND SAYING I THINK I HAVE THIS STUFF, AND THEY’VE HAD PROBLEMS WITH IT FOR YEARS.

 

DUCEY: SO THIS IS A SERIOUS THING -

 

BAKER: IT’S WAY SERIOUS AND IT’S HARMFUL.  AND NOW I’M STARTING TO SEE - WELL, I SAW SOME GULF WAR GUYS - LIKE HE SAID, THEY WERE IN AND OUT AND THEY SAW SOME TERRIBLE THINGS, BUT IT WASN’T LIKE THIS THING.  WHAT THESE GUYS ARE UNDER IS CONSTANT STRESS.   IF THERE ISN’T ANY RELIEF - YOUR VIETNAM GUYS, THEY WOULD GO DO THEIR THING, THEY’D GET A WEEK OR TWO OFF AND SEND THEM BACK AND FORTH.  AND WORLD WAR TWO GUYS, SOMETIMES THEY’D PULL A WHOLE UNIT OUT FOR A MONTH, THEN SEND THEM BACK.  NOW THEY DON’T DO THAT. 

 

DUCEY: PETE, YOU TALKED TO ME ABOUT THAT.  THE KIND  OF DAILY, UNRELENTING  STRESS, THAT EVEN THOUGH YOU WERE’NT IN COMBAT, THAT ANYBODY YOU SAW COULD TAKE A SHOT AT YOU AT ANY TIME.  IS THAT -

 

MARTIN: I WOULD SAY THAT YOU KNOW IN MY SITUATION IT WAS MORE STRESS WAS LAID ON HOW WELL WERE WE PREPARED FOR OUR MISSIONS ON A DAILY BASIS, BECAUSE WE HAD VEHICLES TO GET READY.  WE HAD EQUIPMENT TO LOAD.  WE HAD LEADERSHIP TO BE RESPONSIBLE TO.  AND THAT WAS A STRESS LEVEL ALSO.  BUT ONCE WE LEFT THE WIRE, OR THE GATES OF THE FORWARD OPERATING BASE, THEN EVERYTHING BECOMES SERIOUS BUSINESS.  YOU’RE LOOKING OUT FOR DOING YOUR JOB, BEING OBSERVANT, CONTROLLING YOUR VEHICLE SO YOU DROVE VEHICLES ON THE ROADS.  MAKING RAIDER REPORTS AND JUST BEING READY TO REACT IN CASE WE DID GET ATTACKED.  AND THOSE THINGS DID HAPPEN.  AND THEN RECOVERING FROM THOSE ATTACKS, AND THEN CONTINUE ON THE MISSION.  SO IF YOU WEREN’T ON THE ROAD DOING THE MISSION, YOU WERE BACK AT THE OPERATING BASE, WHAT THEY CALL THEY FOB WHAT THEY CALL IT, PREPARING FOR A MISSION, OR GETTING YOURSELF READY FOR A MISSION, OR MAKING SURE THAT YOU ARE MENTALLY READY AND YOU HAVE YOUR EQUIPMENT READY FOR THE MISSION.

 

DUCEY: SO, IT’S UNRELENTING.

 

MARTIN: LET’S NOT PUT IT THAT WAY.  SOLDIERS HAVE AN INNATE ABILITY. TO RELAX, I MEAN GO TO THE GYM, WATCH DVD, PLAY SOME GAMES, HORSESHOES, BASKETBALL OR WHATEVER ON THEIR TIME OFF.  THEY’RE NOT LETTING IT RIDE ON THEIR SHOULDERS AND THEIR BACK 24-7. 

 

WIENEKE: AND I THINK THAT’S A GOOD POINT.  IT’S ONE THING THAT THE MILITARY DID THIS SURVEY.  THE PEOPLE WHO DID THE SURVEY SHOULD UNDERSTAND MUCH BETTER THAN A NORMAL PERSON, AN EVERYDAY CIVILIAN IN THE CIVILIAN WORLD WOULD UNDERSTAND.

 

DUCEY: I’M SURE.

 

WIENEKE: BUT IF WE TALK ABOUT TROOP ETHICS, IS THIS WRONG, ARE WE FAILING, ARE OUR TROOPS AMORAL OR UNETHICAL TODAY.  THEY ARE NOT.  THEY ARE NOT.  EVEN NUMBERS LIKE THAT DO NOT NECESSARILY SHOW A LACK OF ETHICS.  THEY CAN RELATE TO THE STRESS OF COMBAT.  AND UNLESS A PERSON HAS EVER BEEN THERE AND SEEN A FRIEND, BECAUSE THEY ARE FRIENDS, THEY ARE LIKE FAMILY - THAT’S HOW THEY SURVIVE - I DON’T CARE WHAT SERVICE.  BUT YOU GO OUT THERE, IT COMES INTO IT LIKE WE TALKED ABOUT-  YOU DON’T KNOW  - IT COULD BE A YOUNG KID WITH A BOMB STRAPPED TO HIM - YOU DON’T KNOW WHAT YOU’RE GOING TO FACE - YOU DO CARE - BUT UNLESS YOU’VE EVER BEEN THERE AND SEEN ONE YOUR BUDDIES, YOUR FRIENDS, YOUR FAMILY, OUT OF NOWHERE  JUST BLOWN AWAY RIGHT BESIDE YOU, YOU COULD HAVE THE BEST MORALS, THE HIGHEST ETHICS IN THE WORLD, AND UNTIL YOU’RE IN THAT SITUATION, YOU CAN’T ALWAYS EVEN TELL YOURSELF HOW YOU WILL REACT.  NOW THERE IS NO EXCUSE, EVEN IN MY MIND, AND I THINK THERE ARE BAD APPLES ANYWHERE, EVEN IN THE AMERICAN MILITARY.  BUT THERE ARE VERY FEW OF THEM. AND WE ARE USUALLY PRETTY SUCCESSFUL IN IDENTIFYING THEM AND REMOVING THEM.  BUT WHEN THEY SAY THEY WOULDN’T REPORT - OK, IS IT YOU SEE A WOMAN AND A KID - THEY’RE NO DANGER - I MEAN I WOULD ALMOST TO BE THERE TO BE ABLE TO DECIDE THAT.  AND IT GOES BACK TO THAT AGAIN.  AND THIS IS WHERE IT STARTED BY THE WAY. IN VIETNAM, IS WAS MUCH THE SAME WAY.   YOU DON’T KNOW THAT GUY THAT’S WORKING ON YOUR BASE IN THE DAY MAY BE THERE TRYING TO SLIT YOUR THROAT AT NIGHT.  AND THEY HAD SUICIDE THINGS TOO.  THE POST TRAUMATIC STRESS DISORDER.  I THINK IT BECOMES MORE  - I DON’T BELIEVE IT’S ANY MORE PREVALENT TODAY THAN IT WAS IN WORLD WAR TWO.  I THINK WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE IS SOCIETY, AMERICAN SOCIETY ITSELF HAS CHANGED.  THE GREATEST GENERATION AS THEY’RE CALLED - THEY TO WAR. THEY WERE GONE FOR FIVE YEARS. THEY’RE GONE.  THEY’RE NOT HOME.  THEY MIGHT GET A MONTH OFF, SOMETIMES, THE UNITS, IF THEY’RE NOT NEEDED ON THE BATTLEFRONT.  BUT IT WAS THE GENERATION THAT ACCEPTED IT.  ANYBODY THAT’S  BEEN IN WAR - ANYONE, EVEN IF THEY WERE NEVER FIRED ON - IF THEY’VE BEEN IN A COMBAT  ARENA, THEY  WILL BE AFFECTED FOR THE REST OF THEIR LIVES.  BUT THE GENERATION THAT FOUGHT WORLD WAR TWO WAS A GENERATION OF AMERICANS STILL THAT TOOK CARE OF THEMSELVES - SELF-RESPONSIBILITY. THEY LIVED WITH THINGS.  IT ALL STARTED BADLY.  THEY’D BE AFFECTED BUT THEY CAME HOME.  THEY DEALT WITH IT.  IT STARTED IN VIETNAM, WITH HOW THE RETURNING  VIETNAM VETS - I’M SO HAPPY  HOW OUR IRAQI VETS FROM GULF ONE AND NOW GET TO RETURN.  THE VIETNAM VETS WERE TREATED LIKE CRAP, EXCUSE THE LANGUAGE, WHEN THEY CAME BACK.  AND YOU STARTED TO SEE THE  PEOPLE THAT TREATED THEM THAT WAY OR THAT WOULDN’T GO IN THE MILITARY, WERE SO MUCH AGAINST IT, THEY’RE THE PEOPLE NOW WHOSE KIDS ARE COMING UP, AND WE GRADUALLY - ACCOUNTABILITY AND RESPONSIBILITY IN THE AMERICAN SOCIETY - I’LL SAY IT’S JUST MY OPINION, IN CASE I’M WRONG - HAS TENDED TO GO DOWN, AND ACCEPTING RESPONSIBILITY FOR SOME AND LIVING WITH THOSE THINGS THAT YOU HAD TO SEE, AND DEALING WITH IT YOURSELF - WE’VE LOST SELF-ACCOUNTABILITY, AND THAT’S A LARGE PART OF IT.  I DON’T THINK ANY MORE POST TRAUMATIC STRESS AS SOCIETY HAS GONE ON. THE OLDER GENERATIONS LIVED WITH IT, ACCEPTED IT.

 

BAKER: WE’VE BECOME BETTER AT IDENTIFYING IT.

 

WEINEKE: BECOMING VICTIMS.

 

BAKER: BECOMING VICTIMS!  WELL I’M NOT THINKING THESE PEOPLE ARE VICTIMS.  BECAUSE YOU VOLUNTEERED, DIDN’T YOU?   SO YOU’RE NOT A VICTIM.  YOU VOLUNTEERED AND YOU’RE WORKING FOR US.

 

(OVERTALK)

 

BAKER: AND I’M PERFECTLY GLAD YOU DID.  ALL RIGHT.  BUT NOW, WE CAN IDENTIFY THAT IF THOSE BOYS AND GIRLS OVER THERE ARE GETTING HURT AND THEY’RE GETTING HURT WORSE BY THE PSYCHOLOGICAL STRESS OF IT, WE CAN IDENTIFY THAT AND TAKE CARE OF THEM.  AND THAT’S WHAT THIS IS ALL ABOUT.  IT’S ABOUT THE GOVERNMENT’S ACCOUNTABILITY TO YOU AS A SOLDIER AND HOW WE TAKE CARE OF YOU.  IT’S NOT ABOUT SOME KID OUT HERE AT MACDONALD’S THAT DOESN’T HAVE ACCOUNTABILITY.  IT’S ABOUT TAKING CARE OF YOU.  YOU’RE REALLY, REALLY IMPORTANT TO US. I WANT YOU THERE.  I WANT YOU TAKING CARE OF US.

 

DUCEY: I THINK IT’S ALSO ABOUT TAKING CARE OF IRAQI CIVILIANS.  WE’RE SUPPOSED TO BE THERE TO HELP THEM -

 

BAKER: WELL, THAT’S TRUE.  SEE NOT MANY PEOPLE UNDERSTAND.  THESE GUYS - THERE IS A BOOK.  IT’S CALLED SOLDIERS’ RULES.  AND THEY’RE TRAINED TO THINK THIS WAY.  AND WHAT THE STUDY CAME OUT AND SAID, WE DO TEACH ETHICS.  OUR PROBLEM IS WITH THE NCO’S.  IT’S NOT WITH THE SOLDIER, BECAUSE THE SOLDIER TAKES ORDERS.  AND THE NCO’S - IF THE NCO IS STRONG AND HAS HIS STUFF TOGETHER, HER STUFF TOGETHER, THEN THE SOLDIERS FOLLOW.  AND THEY’RE VERY ETHICAL, OK?  EVEN IN THE MOST DANGEROUS SITUATIONS, THE MOST HORRIBLE, DANGEROUS SITUATIONS.  THOSE SOLDIERS ARE DOING A GREAT JOB.  THERE’S A FEW OF THEM THAT MESS UP.  BASICALLY THEY MESS UP BECAUSE THEY’RE ANGRY, THEY GET ANXIOUS, AND THEY ARE TIRED.  THEY’RE TIRED OF PUTTING BODIES IN BAGS.  THEY’RE TIRED OF PEOPLE SHOOTING AT THEM EVERY DAY.  THEY’RE TIRED OF IT.  AND THEY MAY SAY SOMETHING UGLY TO SOME WOMAN OUT THERE OR SOME KID, WHICH THEY ALSO DID IN VIETNAM.  THEY GOT TIRED OF IT.  AND YOU KEEP RUNNING THEM THROUGH THAT NASTY MILL THAT THOSE GUYS ARE IN AND THEY -

 

WEINEKE: BUT YOU HIT ON IT.  ETHICS OF THE SOLDIER WILL REFLECT THE ETHICS OF THE LEADERSHIP ABOVE HIM.

 

BAKER: THAT’S EXACTLY WHAT THEY’RE SAYING IN THE STUFF HERE IS THAT THE IMPORTAN THING, ONE OF THE MOST IMPORTANT THINGS IS TEACHING THE SOLDIER THE RULES THAT YOU GUYS GET.  AND HE SAID IT RIGHT HERE AT FIRST.  WE GOT BRIEFED EVERY TIME WE CAME IN AND YOU KNOW HAD TO GO OUT THERE.  THIS  IS WHAT YOU DO, THIS IS WHAT YOU LOOK FOR, BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH, AD INFINITUM.  YOU KNOW THEY TOLD THEM WHAT TO DO.  HE HAD GOOD PEOPLE WORKING FOR THEM.

 

MARTIN: AND REALLY, WHAT YOU SAID ABOUT NCO’S - IT IS A VERY, VERY IMPORTANT POSITION FOR AN NCO TO LEAD BY EXAMPLE AND TO SHOW A GOOD EXAMPLE AND A STRONG EXAMPLE.  YOU CAN’T BE A WEAK LEADER.  YOU HAVE TO BE A STRONG LEADER.

 

DUCEY: AND NCO STANDS FOR?

 

MARTIN: NON-COMMISSIONED OFFICER.  THAT’S THE BACKBONE OF THE ARMY.

 

BAKER: THAT’S RIGHT.

 

MARTIN: OR ANY MILITARY SERVICE.  BUT GOING ALONG WITH THAT STRESS THOUGH, I MIGHT ADD THAT IN A COMBAT UNIT, THEY DON’T HAVE THE LUXURY TO PULL THESE SOLDIERS OUT, YOU KNOW. SO YOU’RE FEELING SOME STRESS.  THEY HAVE TO DEAL WITH IT, BECAUSE THAT’S A SQUAD AND THAT’S AN INTEGRAL PART OF  A PLATOON OR A COMPANY, ESPECIALLY A COMBAT UNIT.  AND THOSE SOLDIERS KNOW THAT THEY HAVE TO HANG IN THERE AND STICK TOGETHER AND DO THE JOB DAY IN AND DAY OUT.  THEY DON’T HAVE SOMEBODY IN THE BACK IN THE SUPPLY ROOM THAT’S GOING TO TAKE THEIR PLACE, BECAUSE THEY JUST DON’T HAVE THAT LUXURY.  AND THAT’S PART OF THE STRESS LEVEL.

 

BAKER: WELL THE PROBLEM THEY’RE HAVING IS THE REPEATABLE STRESS. 

 

MARTIN: RIGHT.

 

BAKER:  THEY MENTIONED IN THIS THING, THAT ALL THE WORDS USED, AND THIS IS A MILITARY REPORT, GETTING BEYOND THE WIRE, NO RULES, NO FENCES, NO NOTHING.  AND THAT’S WHAT THEY’RE TALKING ABOUT.  IT’S REALLY AN EYE-OPENER AND IT’S VERY INTERESTING FOR PEOPLE.  AND FOR PEOPLE THAT ARE ANTI-MILITARY, THEY OUGHT TO READ THIS.

 

DUCEY: I DO WANT TO EMPHASIZE THAT THIS STUDY WAS DONE WITH I THINK ABOUT 500 OF THE SOLDIERS WHO HAD BEEN IN HIGH COMBAT SITUATIONS FOR THE LONGEST, SO THESE NUMBERS CAN’T BE APPLIED TO SOLDIERS IN GENERAL.  BUT ONLY TO THE MOST STRESSED ONES.

 

BAKER: WELL, STATISTICS ARE ALWAYS INTERESTING.

 

DUCEY: YEAH, THEY ARE.

 

BAKER: I THINK I TOLD YOU ONE TIME THEY’RE LIKE A BIKINI.  THEY’RE INTERESTING IN WHAT THEY REVEAL AND VITAL IN WHAT THEY DON’T.  BUT STILL YOU STILL HAVE TO GET A BASELINE SOMEWHERE.

 

DUCEY: YES. AND THE THING THAT THESE ARE PROBABLY YOU KNOW BECAUSE THEY ARE WITH THE MOST STRESSED SOLDIERS, PROBABLY PAINT A BLEAKER PICTURE THAN IF IT WERE WITH A GROUP THAT WAS REPRESENTATIVE OF THE MILITARY IN GENERAL.  LET ME ASK YOU ABOUT THE MARINES, BECAUSE THE MARINES WERE THE GROUP THAT SCORED THE LOWEST IN ETHICAL BEHAVIOR, AND BECAUSE OF THAT, THE MARINES HAVE INSTITUTED A STRONGER ETHICAL SCHOOL SORT OF, THE KIND OF THING THAT YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT.  AND IT’S INTERESTING THAT YOU TALKED ABOUT THE OFFICERS, BECAUSE ONE OF THE THINGS THAT THEY’RE TEACHING MARINES IS TO ASK, THEMSELVES “WHAT WOULD MY COMMANDING OFFICER DO?”  AND THAT THAT WOULD BE KIND OF THE LITMUS TEST.  AND IT REMINDS ME OF THE “WHAT WOULD JESUS DO?” THING THAT’S POPULAR IN A LOT OF GROUPS IN THE UNITED STATES.  DO YOU THINK THAT’S A GOOD WAY TO GO ABOUT IT?  DO YOU THINK THAT THE ETHICAL TRAINING THAT YOU RECEIVED, YOUR UNIT RECEIVED, DID A LOT OF GOOD?

 

MARTIN: I THINK IT DID.  BUT I THINK THAT - AND WE DID RECEIVE ETHICAL TRAINING AND THOSE KIND OF THINGS.  BUT I BELIEVE THAT IT’S IMPORTANT THAT WE DO MORE OF IT ON A NORMAL OR A REGULAR ROLE PLAY BASIS, NOT JUST IN A SCHOOL -

 

DUCEY: NOT JUST BOOK LEARNING.

 

MARTIN: NOT JUST BOOK, NOT JUST READING A SOLUTION TO YOU KNOW A SITUATION.  I’M TALKING ABOUT ACTING OUT.  WE DID GET TO ACT OUT SOME THINGS WHILE WE WERE AT SOME OF THE TRAINING BASES THAT I WAS BEFORE I WENT TO IRAQ.

 

DUCEY: AND WHAT WAS THAT LIKE? WHAT DO YOU MEAN ACTING OUT?

 

MARTIN: IT WAS INTERESTING.  WHILE WE WERE - LET’S SAY GATE GUARDS GUARDING THE FOB GATE.  AND YOU HAVE AN INJURED IRAQI BEING BROUGHT BY ANOTHER IRAQI WHO CAN SPEAK BROKEN ENGLISH.  AND THE IDEA WAS WHAT DO YOU DO WITH THIS INJURED IRAQI.  DO YOU LET HIM INTO THE BASE?   HOW DO YOU APPROACH HIM?  WHAT DO YOU DO IF HE DOESN’T FOLLOW YOUR INSTRUCTIONS.  THE IDEA WAS  GET YOU TO DO THE RIGHT THINGS IN ORDER TO HAVE THIS POSSIBLE INSURGENT FROM INJURING OTHER SOLDIERS.  AND SOMETIMES SOLDIERS LET THEIR HAIR DOWN - AND THEY PAY THE CONSEQUENCES IN TRAINING.  WE RAN THE SCENARIO SEVERAL TIMES AND SOME SOLDIERS DID THE RIGHT THING, SOME SOLDIERS DID THE WRONG THING, AND THEY GOT THEM AND THEIR BUDDIES YOU KNOW “KILLED” IN TRAINING.

 

WIENEKE: I THINK IT’S INTERESTING.  I THINK PETE WAS RIGHT.  I THINK WE NEED TO CONTINUE ALL THE BRANCHES TO GIVE ETHICS TRAINING.  I’VE BEEN OUT NOW FOR 13 YEARS.  I MEAN WE HAD IT THEN.  I’M SURE IT STILL DOES GO ON BY READING ABOUT IT.  AND IT DOES NEED TO BE CONTINUED.  AND I MEAN I  WOULD GO SO FAR AS SAY JUST THE AMOUNT WE HAD WHEN I WAS STILL IN BEFORE YOU WERE DOING THINGS OR PREPARING ______.  I HONESTLY BELIEVE THAT YOUNG MEN AND WOMEN THAT COME IN THE MILITARY  WHATEVER BRANCH IN REALITY ARE FOR THIS FIRST TIME IN THEIR LIVES  RECEIVING SOME ETHICAL TRAINING.  WE DON’T DO IT IN SCHOOL, SO THAT’S WHERE IT NEEDS TO START.  THAT ALL GOES BACK TO WHAT I SAID WHEN I TALKED TROOP ETHICS.  ETHICS ARE REFLECTED BY YOUR ENVIRONMENT, GROWING UP RIGHT INTO THE SERVICE.  AND VERY BLUNTLY, OUR MILITARY SERVICES ARE THE FIRST TIME THAT UNFORTUNATELY TOO MANY OF OUR YOUNG PEOPLE GET NOT ONLY THEIR FIRST ETHICAL TRAINING BUT THEIR FIRST TRAINING DISCIPLINE AND ACCOUNTABILITY AND RESPONSIBILITY.  AND AGAIN, IT’S AS IF ETHICS ARE GOING DOWN, I BELIEVE THE FAULT HAS TO REVERT TO SOCIETY ITSELF AND THE FAILURE TO TEACH OUR KIDS AT THE EARLIEST AGE.  BECAUSE THEN THE FOLLOW-UP WITH THE ETHICAL TRAINING YOU GET IS THE ETHICS OF THE LEADERS THAT THEY SEE AND THEY FIGHT UNDER.

 

DUCEY:  SO YOU’RE OFFERING ANOTHER CAUSAL FACTOR THAN COMBAT STRESS.

 

WIENEKE: OH, ABSOLUTELY.

 

DUCEY:  BECAUSE.  IT COULD BE COMBAT STRESS AND A COMBINATION OF -

 

WIENEKE: ABSOLUTELY.  STRESS IS WHAT WOULD SET IT OFF.  BUT THE POINT IS I THINK YOU HAVE TO START GIVING - WE TALK ABOUT A BASIS FOR STARTING.  WE HAVE TO START - I THINK WE SHOULD BE TEACHING ETHICS IN SCHOOL.  NO LATER THAN HIGH SCHOOL.  I THINK ETHICS COURSES SHOULD BE A REQUIREMENT AND A UNIVERSITY COURSE.

 

DUCEY: THIS IS GREAT.  I’M AN ETHICS TEACHER, SO KEEP TALKING.

 

WIENEKE: TOO MANY PEOPLE DO BELIEVE THAT THE YOUNG TROOPS GOING IN THE MILITARY, THE MEN AND WOMEN GOING IN THE MILITARY TODAY, BECAUSE NOW IT’S ALL VOLUNTEER - TOO MANY PEOPLE BELIEVE THAT IT’S JUST A BUNCH OF LOSERS THAT GO INTO THE MILITARY OR THEY’RE MERCENARIES.  NOTHING IS FARTHER FROM THE TRUTH.  WE HAVE HIGHLY MORAL PEOPLE THAT ARE GOING INTO THE SERVICE.  PEOPLE THAT REALLY ARE GOING IN BECAUSE THEY LOVE THEIR COUNTRY AND FEEL THEY OWE THEIR COUNTRY SOMETHING.

 

BAKER: THAT’S NOT THE ARGUMENT.  THE ARGUMENT IS THAT ONCE THEY’RE IN THERE.  THEY’RE TRAINED ETHICALLY AND THEN IN CERTAIN INSTANCES, THOSE CAN BREAK DOWN.

 

WIENEKE: I AGREE.  BUT THOSE INSTANCES ARE WHAT PEOPLE - UNTIL YOU’VE SEEN SOMEBODY RIDE BESIDE YOU GET SHOT AND DROP DEAD, YOU CAN’T SAY -   THE BOOKS ARE THERE.  AND THE BOOKS ARE RIGHT.  WHAT YOU NEED AND HOW YOU DEAL.  THE STRESSES PEOPLE CAN HAVE.  AND WE NEED TO HELP THEM WHEN THEY GET HOME, WHICH IS A FOLLOW ON TO IT.  IF SOLDIERS GET REPORTS FROM THEIR PEOPLE THAT COME BACK HOME AND THEY’RE LIVING IN A PIG STY IN A VA HOSPITAL -

 

BAKER: WHAT THEY’RE DOING IN THIS REPORT IS THEY’RE SAYING WE’VE GOT TO HELP THEM THERE.  AND WE’VE GOT TO HELP THIS GUY THAT’S OUT THERE DRIVING -

 

MARTIN: I THINK I’D LIKE TO ADD THOUGH YOU’VE GOT TO KEEP PERSPECTIVE ON WHAT KIND OF SITUATION THESE SOLDIERS ARE IN IF THEY’RE MAKING MISTAKES.  I MEAN THEY HAVE TO MAKE A SPLIT SECOND DECISION ON A LIFE OR DEATH SITUATION AND IT’S EASY FOR US TO SIT BACK HERE AND ARMCHAIR QUARTERBACK WHAT THEY DID WRONG.

 

WIENEKE: THAT’S CORRECT.

 

MARTIN: BUT WE WEREN’T THERE.  AND WEREN’T GETTING DUMPED WITH BULLETS IN A CHAOTIC SITUATION.

 

WIENEKE: YOU CANNOT HAVE - YOU CANNOT HAVE THE PSYCHOLOGIST SITTING THERE ON THE FRONT LINES WITH THEM.  IN THE FIRST PLACE, WE CANNOT AFFORD TO LOSE OUR PSYCHOLOGISTS AND GETTING THEM SHOT.  WHAT I’M SAYING YOU CAN’T - I MEAN YOU CAN’T - YOU HAVE TEAMS.  THAT’S HOW THESE PEOPLE SURVIVE.  THEY ARE A TEAM.  AND IF YOU START PULLING ONE OUT HERE OR THERE BECAUSE IN A PERSON’S OPINION, “I THINK THEY’RE GETTING DANGEROUS,” YOU CAN DESTROY THE WHOLE UNIT.  IT’S NOT A BAD IDEA, BUT IT DOESN’T WORK THAT WAY.

 

DUCEY: WELL - WE ONLY HAVE A MINUTE LEFT HERE.  CLOSING THOUGHTS?

 

WIENEKE: A CLOSING THOUGHT FOR ME - I MEAN I THINK IT’S GOOD TALKING TROOP ETHICS.  I’M GLAD THEY’VE DONE STUDIES LIKE THIS, ESPECIALLY IF THEY HAVE STARTED IMPROVED ETHICS TRAINING.  BUT WE’VE STILL GOT THE FINEST TROOPS IN THE WORLD OUT THERE SERVING US.

 

BAKER: AND THIS STUDY ONLY SAYS - AND I WOULD INVITE PEOPLE TO READ IT - IT’S NOT ANTI-MILITARY.  AND IT’S NOT ANTI-TROOPS OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT.

 

DUCEY: IN FACT I THINK THE IDEA IS TO SUPPORT.

 

BAKER: EXACTLY.

 

DUCEY: THANK YOU AND THANK YOU - WE’LL SEE YOU NEXT WEEK ON ETHICAL PERSPECTIVES ON THE NEWS.