CHARLOTTE: GOOD MORNING AND WELCOME TO ETHICAL PERSPECTIVES ON THE NEWS.  MY NAME IS CHARLOTTE FALLON .  THIS MORNING WE’RE GOING TO BE DISCUSSING IRAQ, AGAIN.  AS ALL OF YOU KNOW THIS SITUATION IN IRAQ CONTINUES TO PERPLEX ALL OF US.  WE NOW HAVE OVER 160,000 AMERICAN TROOPS THERE.  WE HAVE HAD COUNTLESS SOLDIERS KILLED AND MAIMED MANY OF THEM FOR THE REST OF THEIR LIVES.  THE IRAQIS WERE UNCLEAR, THE NUMBER OF IRAQIS THAT HAVE DIED AND HAVE SUFFERED SERIOUS WOUNDS.  BUT AS WE TRY TO GET AN EXIT STRATEGY FROM THIS WAR, TODAY WE’RE GOING TO CONSIDER WHAT ARE OUR MORAL RESPONSIBILITIES TO THE IRAQIS AND TO OUR SOLDIERS AND PERHAPS EVEN TO OURSELVES IN THIS VERY DIFFICULT SITUATION.  WE KNOW THAT THE RECENT STUDIES HAVE SHOWN US, THERE’S ALWAYS A GROUP, A COMMITTEE MEETING ABOUT SOME ISSUE IN IRAQ BUT WE KNOW FROM COMMITTEE HEARINGS THAT ONLY 3 OF THE 18 BUSH BENCHMARKS HAVE BEEN MET.  A RECENT REPORT SAID THAT THE IRAQI POLICE FORCE IS RIDDLED WITH CORRUPTION, THE IRAQI ARMY IS STILL UNABLE TO MAINTAIN ANY KIND OF SECURITY WITHOUT AMERICAN HELP WITHIN THE COUNTRY.  THIS MORNING WE’RE GOING TO SOLVE ALL OF THESE PROBLEMS.  BUT WE WILL CONSIDER WHAT ARE OUR MORAL RESPONSIBILITIES AS WE SEEK AN END GAME IN IRAQ.  WITH ME TO DISCUSS THESE ISSUES ARE JEREMY BRIGHAM FROM KIRKWOOD COMMUNITY COLLEGE, BILL AOSSEY, PRESIDENT OF MIDAMAR AND BOB SESSIONS, PROFESSOR OF PHILOSOPHY AT KIRKWOOD COMMUNITY COLLEGE.  WELCOME TO ALL OF YOU AND THANK YOU FOR BEING HERE.  I’LL BEGIN BY ASKING ALL OF YOU BEGINNING WITH JEREMY, WHAT ARE YOUR FIRST THOUGHTS ABOUT OUR MORAL RESPONSIBILITIES.

 

JEREMY: THE FIRST THING I THINK OF AND THE EASIEST TO GIVE CONSENSUS ON IS THAT WE NEED TO TAKE CARE OF OUR OWN SOLDIERS.  THEY ARE EXITING ALL THE TIME.  THEY’RE RETURNING AND THERE ARE MANY MENTAL HEALTH NEEDS, MANY PHYSICAL HEALTH NEEDS AND THE FAMILIES OF THE SOLDIERS ALSO NEED SUPPORT AND HELP.  I THINK THAT’S A VERY CLEAR RESPONSIBILITY TO OURSELVES WITHIN OUR OWN COUNTRY, WE NEED TO DEMONSTRATE THAT YOU KNOW WE’RE NOT JUST SENDING PEOPLE OVER THERE AND THEN ABANDONING THEM ONCE THEY RETURN.  SO THAT WOULD BE ONE THING, YOU WANT ALL OF THEM?

 

CHARLOTTE: NO, WE’LL GET ALL OF THEM GOING BUT BILL AND I KNOW YOU TRAVEL TO THE MID EAST A GREAT DEAL CERTAINLY I THINK MORE THAN ANY OF US HERE SO YOU’RE SORT OF MORE FAMILIAR ON A REAL, ON THE GROUND KIND OF LEVEL.  WHAT DO YOU THINK A MORAL OR AT LEAST ONE OR SEVERAL MORAL RESPONSIBILITIES ARE?

 

BILL: WELL YOU’RE RIGHT, WE TRAVEL TO THE MIDDLE EAST QUITE FREQUENTLY BUT NOT TO IRAQ BUT THE FIRST MORAL RESPONSIBILITY I HAVE CONTINUE TO HAVE THOUGHT ABOUT AND ** ARE THE NATIONAL GUARDS.  I THINK IT’S A TRAVESTY THAT FAMILIES AND LAST YEAR THERE WAS A GRANDMOTHER FROM DUBUQUE, 54 YEARS OLD, DRAFTED TO GO, WELL I SHOULDN’T SAY DRAFTED, BELONGED TO THE NATIONAL GUARD, AND WAS SENT TO IRAQ AND WHEN MANY OF THESE FAMILIES AND SMALL BUSINESS PEOPLE THAT HAVE INDEPENDENT COMPANIES AND THEY’RE IN THE NATIONAL GUARD, WHICH REALLY WASN’T HISTORICALLY MANDATED TO FIGHT A WAR, THE FIRST MORAL RESPONSIBILITY IS, PULLING THESE FAMILIES APART AND LEAVING CHILDREN, IN SOME CASES BOTH PARENTS GOING TO IRAQ AND LEAVING CHILDREN WITH GRANDPARENTS, WITH SOMETIMES NEIGHBORS, THAT IS AN INJUSTICE TO THOSE FAMILIES.  AND THE SECOND MORAL RESPONSIBILITY SO OFTEN WE HEAR IN IRAQ ABOUT WHETHER THE IRAQIS ARE REACHING PLATEAUS, WHETHER THEY ARE REACHING CERTAIN LEVELS AND THE SURGE, ONE RARELY THINKS ABOUT HAVE THE LEVELS OF ELECTRIFICATION, WATER, SANITATION BEEN MET FOR THE IRAQIS.  WHEN WE’RE TALKING ABOUT MORAL STANDARDS, IT’S AN OPEN QUESTION AS TO HOW MORALITY IS PLAYING OUT IN THIS WAR FOR FAMILIES ON BOTH SIDES. 

 

CHARLOTTE: BOB?

 

BOB: WELL I CERTAINLY WOULD CONCUR WITH BOTH OF YOU GUYS.  SOMETHING THAT I’VE BEEN THINKING ABOUT THAT WE SHOULD HAVE THOUGHT ABOUT 4 AND ½ YEARS AGO OR LONGER AND THAT IS THAT EVERYTHING THAT WE DO AT EVERY LEVEL WHETHER IT’S INDIVIDUAL OR COLLECTIVE, WE HAVE TO LOOK AT THE CONSEQUENCES, AT THE LONG AS WELL AS SHORT RANGE CONSEQUENCES.  I THINK ABOUT BOSNIA FOR EXAMPLE, THAT TERRIBLE ETHNIC CLEANSING WAS GOING ON BASED ON THINGS THAT HAD HAPPENED 5, 6, 700 YEARS AGO.   PEOPLE HAVE LONG MEMORIES AND CONSEQUENCES THAT ARE STILL PLAYING THEMSELVES OUT.  WHILE I WAS VERY MUCH AGAINST THIS WAR FROM THE BEGINNING AND HAD BEEN QUITE VOCAL, I THINK NOW BECAUSE WE’RE THERE, BECAUSE WE’VE GOT SUCH A PRESENCE, WE’VE MADE SUCH AN IMPACT THAT WE’VE GOT LONG TERM RESPONSIBILITIES.  WE’RE STILL IN KOREA EVEN THOUGH THE HOT WAR HAS BEEN OVER FOR SOME TIME.  WE’RE STILL IN JAPAN, WE’RE STILL IN GERMANY.  WE SHOULD HAVE THOUGHT ABOUT THAT.  SO EVEN IF WE COULD STOP THE VIOLENCE IN THE INSURGENCIES TOMORROW, WE WOULD STILL BE THERE IN GREAT NUMBERS FOR A VERY LONG TIME.  I THINK THAT TO ME THAT’S ONE OF THE MOST IMPORTANT THINGS THAT WE LEARN FROM THIS AND WE TAKE SERIOUSLY.  I DIDN’T WANT TO GO IN, I WISH WE COULD GET OUT TOMORROW BUT I THINK THE DIE IS CAST.  WE’RE THERE, WE’RE HAVING A GREAT IMPACT.  I AGREE, WE HAVE GREAT RESPONSIBILITY TO THE IRAQIS BECAUSE WE TOOK ON THAT RESPONSIBILITY AND AS YOU SAY, WE’VE GOT TO CARRY IT OUT AT LEAST 18 OF THE BENCHMARKS THAT HAVEN’T BEEN MET INCLUDING ENERGY AND WATER AND SANITATION AND SO ON.

 

I HAVE ANOTHER ONE TO ADD NOW THAT EVERYBODY’S HAD A TURN.  I THINK THAT WE HAVE THE RESPONSIBILITY TO THE REFUGEES FROM IRAQ.  WHO’VE GONE TO SYRIA AND GONE TO JORDAN AND EGYPT AND OTHER COUNTRIES AND THEY ARE WITHOUT WORK AND THEY’RE OFTEN NOT WELL HOUSED AND THE EDUCATION SYSTEM IS NOT PREPARED FOR THEM AND ALTHOUGH YOU KNOW THE UNITED STATES HAS TAKEN SYRIA AS AN ENEMY AND PART OF THIS EVIL EMPIRE, THEY’RE TAKING TREMENDOUS BURDEN OF CARING FOR PEOPLE MANY OF WHOM SUPPORTED THE UNITED STATES IN IRAQ AND HAVE FLED BECAUSE THEY’RE LIVES ARE IN DANGER BECAUSE THEY SUPPORTED THE UNITED STATES.  I THINK THAT THE UNITED STATES HAS SOME RESPONSIBILITY TO THOSE IRAQIS WHO FLED THE COUNTRY.  WE CAN’T SOLVE THE PROBLEMS WITHIN IRAQ, WE CAN TRY TO REDUCE THE VIOLENCE BUT WE CAN’T REALLY SOLVE THE POLITICAL PROBLEMS.  THEY’VE GOT TO SOLVE IT THEMSELVES.  BUT WE CAN DO SOMETHING TO PROVIDE FOR THE PEOPLE WHO FLED THE COUNTRY. 

 

DO YOU KNOW HOW MANY THERE ARE?

 

IT’S OVER 2 MILLION. 

 

OVER 1 MILLION IN SYRIA AND SOMEWHERE BETWEEN 8 AND 900 THOUSAND IN JORDAN.  THERE’S ALSO APPROXIMATELY 2 MILLION REFUGEES IN IRAQ ITSELF. 

 

DISPLACED PEOPLE.

 

CHARLOTTE: OR THAT HAVE MOVED AROUND THE COUNTRY.

 

MAINLY BECAUSE, IT’S OFTEN SAID BECAUSE OF CIVIL STRIFE OR DIFFERENCES BUT MOSTLY BECAUSE OF THE INSECURITY OF FIGHTING, LACK OF EMPLOYMENT OR FAMILIES HAVE MOVED FROM BIG CITIES BACK TO VILLAGES BECAUSE THEY HAVE NO ACCOMMODATIONS IN A BIG CITY. 

 

WE CAN’T REALLY DO MUCH ABOUT THE DISPLACED PERSONS WITHIN IRAQ.  BUT THE REFUGEES ARE INTERNATIONAL RESPONSIBILITY.  I THINK WE COULD SUPPORT THE UNITED NATIONS A LOT MORE IN HELPING THE UNITED NATIONS TO DEAL WITH THE REFUGEES.  IN THIS COUNTRY ITSELF I THINK THEY SAID WE’RE GOING TO TAKE 7,000 BUT ONLY 700 HAVE COME OR SOME VERY SMALL NUMBER HAVE COME TO THIS COUNTRY AND WE SHOULD BE ABLE TO TAKE TENS OF THOUSANDS INTO THIS COUNTRY TO HELP THEM SORT OF REGAIN THEIR LIFE. 

 

CHARLOTTE: AND AGAIN, LOOKING AT HISTORY HERE WE KNOW WHAT HAPPENED IN VIET NAM WITH THOSE THAT HAD COLLABORATED WITH THE UNITED STATES BUT WE’RE ALSO SAYING EARLIER THAT SOMEBODY WHO TAUGHT HISTORY FOR MANY YEARS I ALWAYS USED TO SAY TO MY STUDENTS EVEN THOUGH THE GREAT PHILOSOPHER SANTAYANA HAS TOLD US WE NEED TO LEARN FROM HISTORY, WE DON’T.  WE TEND TO KEEP DOING STUFF OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN.

 

DIDN’T YOU SAY THAT THOSE WHO DO NOT LEARN FROM HISTORY ARE DOOMED TO REPEAT IT?  SO WE’RE DOOMED.

 

I DON’T THINK WE’RE DOOMED BECAUSE THERE’S ONE I THINK DIFFERENCE OF OPINION ABOUT WHAT YOU SAID ABOUT THE LONGEVITY OF STAYING IN IRAQ.  AT THE END OF THE KOREAN WAR, AND IT WAS DURING THE BEGINNING OF THE COLD WAR THE UNITED STATES TOOK THE POSITION BECAUSE CHINA, AND WHICH MAO SE TUNG HAD A REVOLUTIONARY SPREE FOR CHINA AND ASIA.  CHINA WAS BACKING NORTH KOREA SO THERE WAS REALLY NO SETTLEMENT, IT WAS AN ARMISTICE OF CEASE FIRE.  IN GERMANY, THE SOVIET UNION WAS CONTROLLING CENTRAL EUROPE SO AT THE END OF BOTH WORLD WAR II AND THE KOREAN CONFLICT THE UNITED STATES WAS FACED WITH THIS CHALLENGE OF THE COLD WAR AND BASED ON THAT TROOPS WERE MAINTAINED IN KOREA AND OKINAWA AND IN GERMANY AND IN EUROPE UNDER NATO.  WE DON’T HAVE A SIMILAR SITUATION IN THE MIDDLE EAST.  IN MY OPINION THERE IS NO JUSTIFICATION FOR LONG TERM PERMANENT BASES IN IRAQ OR WITHIN THE REGION.  IF THE PALESTINIAN ISRAELI SITUATION CAN BE SETTLED IT CAN BE A PEACEFUL VIBRANT REGION.  THEREFORE THE JUSTIFICATION, THERE’S NO MORE COLD WAR, NUCLEAR WEAPONS ARE NOT GOING TO ANNIHILATE THE CONCEPT OF AN AL QUAIDA SO WE HAVE TO BUILD ON PEACE AND STABILITY AND REMOVE THE IMAGE THAT THE UNITED STATES IS GOING TO STAY IN IRAQ FOR A LONG TERM PERMANENT BASIS WHEN THERE’S NO LONGER A COLD WAR. 

 

CHARLOTTE: THERE MUST BE, YOU KNOW YOU SEE PICTURES OF THESE ENORMOUS BASES ON TELEVISION BECAUSE WE’VE GOT 160,000 SOLDIERS THERE BUT PARTS OF THE COUNTRY MUST HAVE BECOME ASPHALT TO HAVE THESE TREMENDOUS INFRASTRUCTURES.

 

IT’S A VERY LARGE COUNTRY BUT ONE OF THE MISGIVINGS IS MANY PEOPLE QUESTION THE OBJECTIVE OF BUILDING PERMANENT LONG TERM BASES BECAUSE THE BASES ARE BUILT, YOU’RE CORRECT, IN IRAQ ARE MASSIVE BASES.  THEY ARE NOT THERE FOR A TEMPORARY SHORT TERM WAR. 

 

CHARLOTTE: WHICH AGAIN, IS NOT ENDEARING US TO THE IRAQI PEOPLE WHO OVER TIME STATISTICALLY HAVE SHOWN THEY DON’T WANT US THERE BUT I KNOW BILL WHEN YOU AND I TALKED, YOU MADE A REALLY INTERESTING POINT ABOUT CONTRACT WORKERS AND IF YOU’D LIKE TO TALK ABOUT THAT A BIT BECAUSE AGAIN, I THINK GIVING EMPLOYMENT TO THESE FOLKS IS ANOTHER MORAL RESPONSIBILITY THAT WE HAVE BECAUSE WE’VE SORT OF DESTROYED THEIR WAY TO MAKE A LIVING. 

 

BILL: IT’S BEEN A CONCERN AND WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT MORAL ISSUES.  IS IT JUSTIFIABLE FOR THE UNITED STATES, PROBABLY FOR THE FIRST TIME IN HISTORY, TO HAVE AN EQUAL NUMBER OF CONTRACT NUMBERS, ALMOST EQUAL TO THE NUMBER OF TROOPS.  NOW PRIOR TO THE SURGE THERE WERE ABOUT 125 TO 140 THOUSAND TROOPS IN IRAQ.  AT ANY ONE TIME THERE’S ABOUT 120 TO 125 THOUSAND CONTRACT WORKERS.  THEY’RE BEING PAID VERY VERY EXORBITANT WAGES AND THIS DIDN’T JUST COME UP RECENTLY BECAUSE OF BLACK WATER OR OTHER ISSUES.  THE FIRST TIME IT CAME TO MY ATTENTION WAS WHEN PAUL BREMER WENT TO IRAQ.  HISTORICALLY ANYBODY WHO’S BEEN IN THE MILITARY ALWAYS USED TO SEE THIS INSIGNIA ON SOLDIERS, MP, MILITARY POLICE.  THERE WERE NO MILITARY POLICE PROTECTING PAUL BREMER.  THERE WERE NO GREEN BERET OR BLACK BERET OR SPECIAL FORCES.  HE CONTRACTED PRIVATE SECURITY GUARDS WHICH IS UNIMAGINABLE IN THE MILITARY THAT YOU WOULD GO OUT AND CONTRACT PRIVATE SECURITY GUARDS AND MANY OF THEM ARE ALMOST MERCENARIES TO BE PAID.  TRUCK DRIVERS THAT ARE BEING PAID $5,000 A WEEK, A THOUSAND DOLLARS A DAY FOR WORK IN A COUNTRY THAT HAS 70% UNEMPLOYMENT AND THIS IS ONE OF THE GRIEVANCES OF THE IRAQI PEOPLE.  THEY KNOW THE COUNTRY AND THEY KNOW THE ROADS AND WE LOST THE OPPORTUNITY WITHIN THE FIRST 4 MONTHS TO ENGAGE IRAQIS IN EMPLOYMENT AND THE LONGER THE SITUATION DETERIORATED THE QUESTION BECAME WHO CAN ONE TRUST?  THEN THEY STARTED BRINGING IN FILIPINOS FOR COOKS, MAKING BEDS, WHEN THE IRAQI LADIES, THEY ARE COMPETENT WORK.  YOU DON’T HAVE A SITUATION LIKE AFGHANISTAN WHERE THE WOMEN ARE ISOLATED.  IRAQI WOMEN ARE INTELLIGENT, THEY ARE STRONG AND THEY ARE WORKERS SO WE HAVE A DIFFERENT SITUATION AND WE LOST THAT OPPORTUNITY TO ENGAGE AN EMPLOYEE THE IRAQIS THEMSELVES AND NOW WITH SOMEWHERE BETWEEN 100 AND 125 THOUSAND FROM SOUTH AMERICA, FROM SOUTH AFRICA AND FROM PHILIPPINES, FROM SRI LANKA TRUCK DRIVERS, COOKS, DOING THE LAUNDRY, TAKING CARE OF THE WATER, SECURITY GUARDS.  THIS IS INTERNATIONALLY UNPRECEDENTED AND BY MANY LAWS ILLEGAL TO HAVE THIS TYPE OF CONTRACT FORCE OCCUPYING THE COUNTRY.

 

CHARLOTTE: AND IS THAT OPPORTUNITY GONE NOW?   I MEAN DOES THE WHOLE SECURITY SITUATION JUST MEAN THAT THAT CAN NO LONGER BE BECAUSE BY THE TIME

 

I DON’T KNOW BUT I WOULD SAY THAT THAT RESPONSIBILITY SHOULD BE PUT ON THE IRAQI PEOPLE.  IT IS NOT THE RESPONSIBILITY OF THE UNITED STATES TO BE IN THERE LOOKING FOR SO CALLED TERRORISTS.  THIS IS THE SECURITY, INTERNAL SECURITY OF THE IRAQI PEOPLE.  THE UNITED STATES WHO IS THERE AND SHOULD BE THERE TO TRAIN THE IRAQIS AND TRANSFER RESPONSIBILITY OVER TO THEM.  MAYBE ONE OF YOU HAVE AN OPINION ON THAT.

 

IF I COULD GO BACK TO THE PREVIOUS COMMENT FOR JUST A MINUTE.  FIRST I THINK WE HAVE A LONG TERM RESPONSIBILITY TO THE IRAQI PEOPLE BECAUSE OUR PRESENCE THERE HAS SO DRAMATICALLY AFFECTED THEIR SOCIETY.  I’M NOT CONVINCED THAT A LONG STRONG MILITARY PRESENCE IS THE WAY TO CARRY THAT OUT OR IS THE ONLY WAY FOR SURE BUT WITH REGARD TO THE POLICY QUESTION, YOU KNOW YOU MENTIONED THE COLD WAR AND THE RUSSIANS OR THE CHINESE.  I THINK THE PERCEPTION OF OUR LEADERS IS THAT THE STABILITY OF THE MIDDLE EAST WAS GOING TO BE A PROBLEM ONCE WE TOOK SADAM OUT BECAUSE SADAM WAS THERE KEEPING FROM OUR POINT OF VIEW, AT LEAST SOME PEOPLE, A BALANCE BETWEEN IRAQ AND IRAN.  SEEING IRAN AS THIS GROWING PROBLEM AND SO NOW WHAT HAPPENS WHEN SADAM IS GONE, THAT VACUUM IN IRAN WANTING TO TAKE OVER.  I’M NOT AGREEING WITH THAT SCENARIO BUT I’M SAYING I THINK THAT’S THE KIND OF JUSTIFICATION THAT THE COLD WAR PROVIDED BEFORE THAT’S NOW BEING PROVIDED AT LEAST TO SOME OF OUR LEADERS. 

 

WELL I’LL TAKE A DIFFERENT POINT WHICH YOU MENTIONED VERY BRIEFLY BUT IN MY READING OF THE REASONS FOR GOING TO WAR THERE WAS A POLICY THINK TANK IN THE UNITED STATES THAT WAS PROMOTING THE DISABLING OF IRAQ IN ORDER TO PROTECT ISRAEL AND THAT THIS UNDERLIES THE REASONING AND THE MANY FALSE REASONS WE HAD, THE SORT OF FRONT REASONS BUT I THINK THE UNDERLYING REASON WAS AN ISRAELI CONCERN FOR THE DANGER THAT IRAQ PROPOSED TO ISRAEL AND NOW WE STILL HAVE AN UNRESOLVED PROBLEM BETWEEN ISRAEL AND PALESTINE.  I THINK AGAIN AS YOU MENTIONED BILL, IF THE ISSUES BETWEEN ISRAEL AND PALESTINE COULD BE RESOLVED AND I THINK IT WOULD TAKE A LOT OF WORK, AND IT WILL TAKE A CHANGE IN THE AMERICAN PERSPECTIVE AND RELATIONSHIP TO ISRAEL.  AMERICA HAS GIVEN EVERYTHING TO ISRAEL THAT ISRAEL HAS ASKED FOR.  MONEY AHEAD OF TIME WITHOUT HAVING TO PAY IT BACK, EXTRA ELEMENTS AND MILITARY SUPPLIES.  EVERYTHING FOR THE DEFENSE OF ISRAEL BUT I DON’T THINK THAT ISRAEL FEELS VERY SECURE WITH ALL OF THIS AND I THINK THE UNITED STATES REALLY NEEDS TO GET IN TO SAY TO ISRAEL, YOU MUST GET THE SETTLEMENTS OUT OF THE WEST BANK.  THE PALESTINIANS MUST HAVE A CONTINUOUS STATE TO GOVERN THEMSELVES WITHOUT ISRAELI PRESENCE THERE.  I THINK THIS WILL TAKE A LOT OF STEAM OUT OF THE ARAB WORLD AND THE ANGER TOWARD THE UNITED STATES AND ALLOW A RESOLUTION OF THE IRAQ PROBLEM IN THE LONG RUN.  I THINK THEY’RE VERY INTIMATELY CONNECTED AND MOST OF THE NEWS MEDIA NEVER REALLY TALKS ABOUT IT.

 

YOU TOUCH ON A POINT.  A WEEK AGO MONDAY, I THINK IT WAS LAST WEEK MONDAY I WROTE A LETTER TO THE GAZETTE ENTITLED 65 BILLION DOLLARS OF MORE MISERY.  A MONTH AGO CONDOLEEZA RICE AND SECRETARY GATES WENT TO THE MIDDLE EAST AND PROPOSING, IT WAS MORE THAN PROPOSING, IT WAS FINALIZED THAT ISRAEL WILL GET ABOUT 35 BILLION DOLLARS IN MILITARY AID AND THE ARABS WILL BE SOLD 30 BILLION DOLLARS.  THE 30 BILLION DOLLARS WILL HELP OFFSET THE 35 BILLION IN AID TO ISRAEL.  BUT MY POINT WAS THAT OF ALL OF THIS MILITARY AID, AND MILITARY SALES, THERE IS NO REGION IN THE WORLD THAT HAS THE POLITICAL CONNECTIONS OF ISRAEL TO SECURE AID AND THE RESOURCES OF THE ARAB AND THE FOOLISHNESS OF THE ENTIRE REGION TO WASTE ANOTHER 65 BILLION DOLLARS ON THE MILITARY INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX THAT HAS NOT GIVEN THE ISRAELI PEOPLE ANY SECURITY AND HAS GIVEN THE ARAB PEOPLE MISERY AND IMPOVERISHMENT. 

 

BUT IT HAS GIVEN EMPLOYMENT TO THE AMERICAN MILITARY INDUSTRIAL

 

IF WE AS PEOPLE OF THE UNITED STATES AND ONE OF THE THINGS WE KEEP HEARING FROM OUR PRESIDENT WANT TO BES IS THEY KEEP REFERRING TO AMERICAN POLICY AND WE THE AMERICAS WHICH INCLUDES CANADA AND MEXICO SO WE SHOULD DISTINGUISH WHEN WE’RE TALKING, ESPECIALLY THE PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATES, WHEN THEY’RE TALKING ON INTERNATIONAL POLICY THEY SHOULD BE TALKING ON POLICIES OF THE UNITED STATES AND NOT THE AMERICAN POLICY WHICH IS CONFUSED FOR ALL OF THE AMERICAS BUT SECONDARY TO THAT, WE AS PEOPLE OF THE UNITED STATES NEED OUR SECURITY THROUGH EDUCATION, THROUGH THE ECONOMY IN THIS COUNTRY AND WE ARE NOT GETTING IT BY CONTINUALLY MANDATING MILITARY EXPENDITURES. 

 

CHARLOTTE: IT’S INTERESTING I THINK THOUGH LOOK AT THE TROUBLE PRESIDENT CARTER GOT INTO WHEN HE STARTED TALKING MORE ABOUT FAIRNESS IN THE MIDDLE EAST AND THIS IS

 

WHAT YOU REFER TO IS THE APARTHEID SYSTEM THAT HAS DEVELOPED IN THE WEST BANK UNDER ISRAELI OCCUPATION.  THAT’S THE MOST RECENT FLACK.  MAYBE YOU’RE TALKING ABOUT SOMETHING ELSE.

 

CHARLOTTE: NO.  NO. 

 

HE IS THE EX PRESIDENT AND IN HIS 80'S, HE’S FREE TO SAY WHAT HE WANTS AND HE’S BEEN LOOKING AT IT FOR A LONG TIME.  MOST OF THE PEOPLE I’VE READ SAY HE’S RIGHT ON.  HE UNDERSTANDS IT AND HE’S GOT THE COURAGE TO SAY SO.  BUT HE’S GOTTEN A LOT OF ATTACK AND I’M GOING TO GET A LOT OF ATTACK FOR WHAT I’M SAYING.

 

CHARLOTTE: BUT EVEN, YOU KNOW I WONDER SOMETIMES WITH SOME OF THE CONFLICT IN THE MIDDLE EAST IF THE PALESTINIAN ISSUE ISN’T JUST SORT OF THROWN IN THERE BECAUSE I MEAN I UNDERSTAND THAT THIS IS A VERY DIFFICULT PROBLEM BETWEEN ISRAEL AND THE PALESTINIANS BUT IN IRAQ, ARE WE GOING TO SOLVE THE SUNNI SHIA BUSINESS?  I MEAN THE WHOLE PALESTINIAN ISSUE IS A WHOLE OTHER DEAL.  AL QUAIDA USES IT SORT OF BUT AL QUAIDA JUST DOESN’T LIKE US AND I’M NOT SURE HOW MUCH IT HAS TO DO WITH THAT PROBLEM.

 

WHEN THE MEDIA FOCUSES ON THE SUNNI SHIA PROBLEM, THAT IS, THEY SHOULD REALLY BE TALKING ABOUT THE PROBLEM INSIDE IRAQ BECAUSE KUWAIT IS ABOUT 60%, 60-40% DIVIDED BETWEEN SUNNI SHIA.  BAHRAIN IS PROBABLY 80/20.  QATAR IS ALMOST 50/50, 60/40, SAME WAY WITH UAE.  THE COMMUNITY, EASTERN SAUDI ARABIA WHERE THE OILFIELDS IS PREDOMINATELY SHIA.  THESE COMMUNITIES HAVE LIVED AND ARE LIVING COMPATIBLE IN EVERY OTHER COUNTRY.  WHEN THE MEDIA CONTINUALLY FOCUSES ON WHAT THE TARI KAZEEZ WHO WAS THE FOREIGN MINISTER, SADAM WAS A CHRISTIAN.  SADAM, REGARDLESS OF HOW HE WAS OR HOW RUTHLESS HE WAS, THERE WERE CHURCHES AND SYNAGOGUES AND MOSQUES AND WHOEVER WANTED TO BE NOTHING AND ZOROASTER IN IRAQ SO THE COMMUNITIES LIVED TOGETHER UNDER SADAM.  NOW THIS IDEA THAT IT’S A SUNNI SHIA WAR, I TOTALLY DISREGARD THAT.  IT’S CLEAVAGES WITHIN THE IRAQI SOCIETY, IT’S GRIEVANCES ABOUT WHO IS GETTING WHAT AND WHO’S GETTING WHAT AND SO MANY TIMES I’M SORRY TO SAY THAT I LOOK AT OUR DETERIORATING SITUATIONS BLAMING OTHER COUNTRIES IN THE REGION, AS YOU SAID THERE’S ALMOST 1 MILLION IRAQI REFUGEES IN SYRIA YET IT’S OFTEN ACCUSED THAT SYRIA HAS INFILTRATION ACROSS THEIR BORDER.  MY GOD, WHEN YOU HAVE A MILLION PEOPLE MOVING BACK AND FORTH IT’S VERY EASY IF YOU HAVE 100 PEOPLE A MONTH SLIPPING THROUGH AS INSURGENTS.  AND TURKEY WITH THEIR VERY STRONG ARMY CANNOT CONTROL THE INSURGENCY OF THE KURDS IN THE NORTH SO OUR MEDIA OFTENTIMES FOCUSES ON MISREPRESENTATION OF THE REALITY ON THE GROUND.

 

SO IS THAT A MORAL RESPONSIBILITY THAT THE MEDIA SHOULD BE TAKING UP TO BE MORE REPRESENTATIVE OF THE REALITY ON THE GROUND? 

 

WELL NOT ONLY ON THE GROUND IN IRAQ, IT’S LIKE YOU SAID IF THE MEDIA HAD BEEN MORE RESPONSIBLE, WE MAY NOT 5 YEARS AGO WE MAY NOT BE IN THIS WAR BECAUSE THERE WAS VIRTUALLY AS YOU SAID YOU MIGHT GET CRITICIZED FOR WHAT YOU SAY ON THIS PROGRAM, IF PEOPLE REMEMBER BACK, IT WAS ALMOST UNPATRIOTIC TO QUESTION ANY TYPE OF DISCUSSION AS TO WHETHER THERE SHOULD BE A CONFLICT OR NOT WHETHER THERE SHOULD BE A MANDATE TO GO TO WAR, YOU WERE ALMOST UN AMERICAN.  I WAS INVITED TO A NUMBER OF PROGRAMS AND WHEN YOU TRIED TO DISCUSS THE OBJECTIVITY OF WHETHER THERE WERE OR WERE NOT WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION ETC, IT WAS ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE, ARE YOU PRO SADAM, ARE YOU ANTI WAR?  NO I’M NOT ANTI MILITARY, I BELIEVE IN A STRONG COUNTRY BUT OUR MEDIA BASICALLY CLOSED DOWN AND THERE WAS NO FREE DISCUSSION.  I SHOULDN’T SAY NO FREE DISCUSSION, IT WAS HARD TO DISCUSS IT WITHOUT SEEMING TO BE UNPATRIOTIC. 

 

CHARLOTTE: AND I THINK WE SAW THAT JUST WITH THE DEMOCRATS ALL SORT OF JUMPING ON BOARD WITH THIS, A GROUP THAT WE WOULD HAVE HOPED WOULD HAVE I MEAN IN THE 2 PARTY SYSTEM YOU HOPE THAT AT LEAST ONE PARTY WILL AS LEAST LOOK CRITICALLY AT WHAT THE OTHER PARTY SHOULD

 

AND IT SHOULDN’T EVEN BE THE PARTY, THE CONSCIENCE OF THE PEOPLE AND THE BOTH HOUSES AND ACADEMIC COMMUNITY AND COMMUNITY AT LARGE AND RELIGIOUS CENTERS TO SAY WHAT IS BEST FOR OUR COUNTRY.

 

CHARLOTTE: AND SHOULD THAT BE THE BOTTOM LINE HERE BOB, WHAT IS BEST FOR OUR COUNTRY OR ARE WE BEYOND THAT NOW WITHIN THIS IN THIS SITUATION?

 

BOB: I TEACH A LOT ABOUT GLOBALIZATION OK AND IT’S A REALITY, ECONOMICALLY IT’S A REALITY SOCIALLY TREMENDOUS TRADE OF KNOWLEDGE AND MATERIALS AND SO ON AND YOU KNOW GROWING EQUALIZATION OF PEOPLES ECONOMIES.  WE’VE GOT TO END THE POWER OF NATIONALISM,

 

CHARLOTTE: OH GOOD LUCK WITH THAT.

 

BOB: I REALLY DO THINK THAT THE ARAB NATIONALISM NEEDS TO BE WINDING DOWN AND WE NEED TO ACT MUCH MORE LIKE A GLOBAL COMMUNITY.  SO I THINK THAT’S FINALLY WHAT HAS TO HAPPEN AND IT’S NOT EASY.  I’M NOT SAYING THAT THE UNITED NATIONS IS AN EASY ORGANIZATION TO MOVE AND SO ON.  LOOK AT WHAT’S HAPPENED IN DARFUR, YOU KNOW FINALLY AFTER 7 OR 8 YEARS OF SLAUGHTER THERE, THE U.N. IS FINALLY DOING SOMETHING.

 

BUT WHEN I SAY TAKE CARE OF OUR COUNTRY, I BELIEVE THE UNITED STATES BECAUSE WE TRAVEL SO MUCH I WAS IN THE PEACE CORPS, I WAS IN VIET NAM, I’VE BEEN IN THE MIDDLE EAST.  I BELIEVE WE HAVE SO MUCH TO OFFER THE WORLD AND WHEN I SAY IF WE TAKE CARE OF OUR COUNTRY FIRST, WE’RE GOING TO HAVE THE RESOURCES TO HELP THE REST OF THE WORLD, UPLIFT AND ALLEVIATE HALF OF THE WORLDS POPULATION LIVES ON LESS THAN $2 A DAY, 25% ON LESS THAN A DOLLAR A DAY AND MANY REGIONS IN THE WORLD 70% ILLITERACY.  SO WHEN I SAY IF WE TAKE CARE OF OUR COUNTRY FIRST, WE WILL BE ABLE TO SHARE WITH THE REST OF THE WORLD. 

 

CHARLOTTE: HAVE WE LOST OUR MORAL AUTHORITY JEREMY DO YOU THINK?  BECAUSE IT USED TO BE THE UNITED STATES HAD GREAT MORAL AUTHORITY AROUND THE WORLD TO DO THE KINDS

 

JEREMY: THE FALSE REASONS FOR GOING INTO IRAQ JUST UNDERMINES THE BEGINNING OF IT.  I THINK NOW WE’RE IN THE POSITION WHERE WE’RE THERE AND WE FEEL RESPONSIBLE BECAUSE WE’RE THERE BUT IT’S KIND OF LIKE A CIRCLE, NOW WE’RE IN THE CIRCLE.  BUT WE SHOULDN’T HAVE BEEN IN THE CIRCLE.  WHEN WE FIRST WENT IN, I SAID WE ARE INVADING ANOTHER COUNTRIES SOVEREIGNTY.  MAYBE THEY WERE DOING THINGS ALL WRONG BUT THEY WERE A SOVEREIGN COUNTRY.  WHAT RIGHT DID WE HAVE TO GO IN AT ALL?  REGARDLESS FOR ALL THESE DIFFERENT REASONS, WHAT RIGHT DID WE HAVE TO GO IN AND I DIDN’T HEAR THAT DISCUSSED VERY MUCH.  NOW YOU GET TO GLOBALIZATION AND YOU SAY WELL, WE NEED TO DE ESCALATE NATIONALISM, WE’VE GOT A CASE HERE.  NOW CHARLOTTE YOU SAID THAT YOU THOUGHT MAYBE THE PALESTINIAN ISSUE WAS A SIDE ISSUE. 

 

CHARLOTTE: OH I DON’T THINK IT I THINK THAT THEY’RE AN IMPORTANT ISSUE BUT I ALSO THINK IT’S USED

 

WELL BEFORE WE WENT IN SADAM HUSSEIN WAS PROVIDING 25 THOUSAND DOLLARS TO THE FAMILIES OF THE SUICIDE BOMBERS.  AND THIS WAS AS ** TO ISRAELIS AND A LOT OF OTHER PEOPLE WERE VERY UPSET ABOUT THAT TOO.  BUT THAT WAS ONE OF THE THINGS THAT WAS HAPPENING BEFORE WE WENT IN THAT LINKS PALESTINE WITH THAT AND ABU ZAKARI WAS A PALESTINIAN WHO LIVED IN JORDAN AND YOU KNOW HE WAS KILLED A COUPLE OF YEARS AGO BUT HE WAS ONE OF THOSE LEADERS OF AL QUAIDA IN IRAQ.  DEFINITELY CONNECTED TO THE PALESTINIAN ISSUE.  SO I DON’T THINK WE CAN SAY THE PALESTINIANS ARE NOT CENTRAL TO THE WHOLE ARAB WEST CONFLICT. 

 

CHARLOTTE: YEAH, I GUESS, AND I MEAN I DO AGREE THAT PALESTINE IS A VERY IMPORTANT ISSUE BUT I DO ALSO THINK THAT IT GETS USED BY BOTH SIDES WHO I’M NOT SURE IN SOME CASES WANT PEACE IN PALESTINE BECAUSE THEN THAT TAKES AWAY A LITTLE CHIP THAT THEY HAVE.  WE’RE RUNNING OUT OF TIME HERE BUT I OFTEN WANT TO MAKE PEOPLE, WE CAN’T WE ONLY HAVE 30 SECONDS LEFT BUT ANY FINAL THOUGHTS FROM ANYBODY THAT THEY WANT TO MAKE QUICKLY THAT THEY HAVEN’T YET MADE.

 

WELL I GO BACK TO THE AMERICANS WHO HAVE SERVED THERE AND THEIR NEEDS WHEN THEY RETURN.

 

CHARLOTTE: YEAH.  WE DON’T HAVE TROUBLE PAYING FOR TANKS BUT WE SEEM TO HAVE TROUBLE PAYING FOR MEDICAL CARE.  WELL, AGAIN THIS IN AN ONGOING SITUATION.  THANK YOU FOR JOINING US THIS MORNING AND I’M SURE WE’LL BE DISCUSSING THIS AGAIN IN THE FUTURE.