SCOTT: GOOD MORNING AND WELCOME TO ETHICAL PERSPECTIVES ON THE NEWS.  MY NAME IS SCOTT SAMUELSON.  I’M A PROFESSOR OF PHILOSOPHY AT KIRKWOOD COMMUNITY COLLEGE IN IOWA CITY.  THE ISRAELI PALESTINE CONFLICT IS A PART OF OUR WORLD STRIFE AND IT DOESN’T LOOK LIKE IT’S GOING AWAY ANYTIME SOON.  IT’S A CONFLICT THAT INVOLVES NATIONS AND PEOPLES AND RELIGIONS.  MANY MUSLIMS RADICAL AND MODERATE AS WELL AS MANY ARAB CHRISTIANS REGARD THE PLIGHT OF THE PALESTINIANS AN INJUSTICE, ONE IN WHICH AMERICA IS IMPLICATED.  MANY JEWS AND NON ARAB CHRISTIANS ON THE OTHER HAND FEAR FOR ISRAEL IN THE MIDST OF A HOSTILE MIDDLE EAST AND THE POUR OF TERRORISM THE ISRAELIS HAVE SUFFERED FROM GROUPS LIKE THE PLO AND HEZBOLLAH.  LAST YEAR HAMAS, WON A MAJORITY IN THE PALESTINIAN LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL, DUE SOME WOULD SAY IN PART TO THE INEPTITUDE OF PRACTA.  PEOPLE THINK OF IT AS YASSAR ARAFATS PARTY.  IN JUNE HAMAS USED FORCE TO TAKE CONTROL IN THE GAZA STRIP.  HAMAS REFUSES TO RECOGNIZE THE RIGHT OF ISRAELS EXISTENCE AND ENVISIONS IN ITS PLACE THE PALESTINIAN ISLAMIC STATE.  HOW SHOULD AMERICA RESPOND?  WHAT BELONGS TO WHOM?  IS THERE A WAY TO PEACE AND WHAT HANGS ON THIS CONFLICT?  WE HAVE WITH US TO HELP ILLUMINATE THESE MURKY ISSUES 3 FINE PANELISTS.  HATEM ABU-MAISER, A PALESTINIAN AMERICAN IN INTERNATIONAL MARKETING FROM THE MIDDLE EAST REGION OF MID AMER CORPORATION, THANK YOU FOR BEING ON.  GERALD SOROKIN THE HILLEL HOUSE DIRECTOR FOR THE UNIVERSITY OF IOWA, THANKS FOR BEING ON.  AND PAT MINOR WITH CONCERNED IOWANS FOR MIDDLE EAST PEACE, THANKS FOR BEING ON PAT.  OK SO WE CAN HAVE PEACE IN THE MIDDLE EAST PERHAPS, WE CAN HAVE PEACE TODAY ON OUR PANEL.  MAYBE LET’S START HATEM WITH YOU, HAMAS LAST YEAR WON THE MAJORITY IN THE PALESTINIAN LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL, HAVE THE VOICES, SOME WOULD SAY THE VOICES OF REASON AND RECONCILIATION HAVE BEEN DROWNED OUT IN PALESTINE, IS THAT TRUE, WHAT’S THE SITUATION LIKE IN PALESTINE RIGHT NOW FROM A POLITICAL STANDPOINT?

 

HATEM: WELL WE HAVE TO LOOK WHAT MAKES HAMAS COME TO POWER.  IN PALESTINE RIGHT NOW IN THE GAZA STRIP, ESPECIALLY WITH THE POSITION OF THE PRIME MINISTER BEING FROM HAMAS, HAMAS RELUCTANTLY DID NOT ATTEMPT ANY ELECTIONS FOR SO MANY YEARS.  THE SAME WAY THE RESISTANT MOVEMENTS ARE NOT GOING TO BE INVOLVED WHERE AGAINST OSLO.  SO BASICALLY THEY HAD AFTER THE OSLO AGREEMENT THEY ESTABLISHED THE PALESTINE SUPPORT.  YASSAR ARAFAT MOVED INTO THE WEST BANK TRYING TO ESTABLISH THE PALESTINIAN STATE WHICH MIGHT TAKE A FEW YEARS TO COME FORWARD.  MAYBE AFTER A FEW YEARS THEY REALIZED THINGS ARE NOT MOVING FORWARD, MANY THINGS HAD BEEN PROMISED FOR THE PALESTINIANS TO ESTABLISH THEIR OWN STATE WAS NOT BEING DONE.  ARAFAT WAS RELUCTANT TO GIVE ANY MORE CONCESSIONS, HE TALKED ABOUT THE RIGHT OF RETURN, HE TALKED ABOUT THE SETTLEMENT, THEY TALKED ABOUT JERUSALEM, THEY KIND OF FELT FOR A NEED FOR YASSAR ARAFAT TO BE REPLACED SO THEY LOOKED FOR **.  I’M TALKING ABOUT THE UNITED STATES, THE EUROPEAN UNION, THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT, THEY LOOK FOR A REPLACEMENT, SOMEONE THEY CAN DEAL WITH AND THEY CAN MOVE FORWARD.  THEY DID NOT HAVE A LOT OF SUPPORT WITH THE PALESTINIAN GROUP.  PEOPLE LIKE YASSAR ARAFAT, HE WON’T GIVE ANY MORE CONCESSIONS, HE WILL GO WITH UNITED NATIONS RESOLUTIONS, HE WILL GO WITH THE OSLO AGREEMENT.  HE SAID WE NEED TO DO ONLY ****.  AND GIVE IT TO THE PRIME MINISTER POST WHICH THEY ACTUALLY ESTABLISHED.  A FEW YEARS LATER, ARAFAT IS DEAD.  DEAD IS DEAD.  HOLOBAS IS THE PRESIDENT HAMAS WILL NOT GO THROUGH THE ELECTIONS, HE PUT SOMEBODY FROM HIS CABINET TO BE THE PRIME MINISTER.  NOW THE PRIME MINISTER OF COURSE HAVE A LOT OF AUTHORITY.  A FEW YEARS LATER, HAMAS DECIDED TO GO THROUGH THE ELECTIONS.  NOW ALL OF A SUDDEN, THEY WON THE MAJORITY.  NOW THEY HAVE THE RIGHT TO BE AT THE PRIME MINISTER POST WITH ALL OF THIS AUTHORITY.  NOW *** WHAT ARE WE GOING TO DO NOW.  WE ESTABLISHED THIS POST, WE DIDN’T KNOW HAMAS WOULD EVENTUALLY TAKE THE HEAD OF THAT POST AND HAVE A LOT OF AUTHORITY.  SO WE DECIDED WE’RE NOT GOING TO DEAL WITH HAMAS.  WELL MAYBE I DO NOT AGREE WITH HAMAS, IDEOLOGY.  WE SEPARATE ON THIS ISSUE.  THEY HAVE WON THE ELECTION, THEY HAVE A RIGHT TO PRESENT AND GIVING ** TO SEE WHAT THEY CAN DO AFTER THEY HAVE ENTERED THE GOVERNMENT.  IF IT WAS OUTSIDE THE GOVERNMENT AND THE GOVERNMENT THEY HAVE THINGS THEY HAVE TO DO DIFFERENTLY.

 

SCOTT: SO THERE’S A CHANCE THEY COULD BECOME MORE RESPONSIBLE?

 

HATEM: I MEAN, THERE’S A CHANCE FOR THEM TO CHANGE, I KNOW THEY HAVE A LEGITIMATE CAUSE TO FIGHT AND TO RESIST THE OCCUPATION MAYBE THEY HAVE USED ILLEGITIMATE MEANS.  BUT PEOPLE WILL ******** ISRAEL HAVE ILLEGITIMATE CAUSE AND STILL HAVE **** BUT YOU WILL FIND MORE PALESTINIAN LAND.  BUT BASICALLY THIS GOVERNMENT WAS GIVEN AN ADEQUATE CHANCE, I’M NOT SURE WHETHER THEY HAVE SUCCEEDED OR NOT.  BUT THEY ARE NOT GIVEN AN ADEQUATE CHANCE.

 

THEY HAVE NOT BEEN GIVEN AN ADEQUATE CHANCE?

 

HATEM: NO THEY HAVE NOT.

 

BY WHO?

 

HATEM: BY THE UNITED STATES.  BY ISRAELI GOVERNMENT AND SOME ARAB COUNTRIES AS WELL.  THEY WERE NOT GIVEN AN ADEQUATE CHANCE TO MAKE A DIFFERENCE.  THEY WERE REALLY KIND OF CORNERED.  SO FINANCIALLY, POLITICALLY, THEY WERE NOT GIVEN ANY CHANCE TO MOVE FORWARD TO SEE IF THEY COULD MAKE A DIFFERENCE OR NOT.  AUTOMATICALLY THE DECISION WAS MADE.  THEY WON, EVEN THOUGH IT WAS A LEGITIMATE ELECTIONS, WHETHER THEY ARE RIGHT OR WRONG BUT THEY REPRESENT A MAJORITY OF THE PEOPLE.  LET’S SEE WHAT THEY HAVE TO SAY.

 

SO YEAH, THEN THERE IS THE TRUTH THAT THEY’RE A DEMOCRATIC

 

HATEM: CORRECT.  WE WERE FIGHTING FOR A TRUE DEMOCRACY.  THEY SAID WELL YASSAR ARAFAT NEVER HAD A DEMOCRACY.  HE WAS IN CONTROL FOR SO MANY YEARS SO THE PREDICAMENT WAS WE DIDN’T REALLY HAVE A CHANCE TO KNOW WHETHER THEY GOING TO MAKE A DIFFERENCE OR NOT.  THE EVENTS WERE FALLING PRETTY QUICKLY, HAMAS BEING CLOSED THE GAZA BEING CLOSED, THE OPPOSITION FROM FATAH ALSO FROM HAMAS AND THIS IS *****   SO ON TOP OF ALL THE SITUATION THE PALESTINIAN.

 

SCOTT: WELL WE’LL COME BACK TO THAT.  LET’S GET GERALD IN HERE WITH WHAT ABOUT HAMAS, WHAT SHOULD WE THINK ABOUT THEM?  SHOULD WE GIVE THEM A CHANCE TO WHAT EXTENT SHOULD IT BE GIVEN A CHANCE?

 

GERALD: THERE’S A PROBLEM WITH HAMAS.  HAMAS IS CLEARLY COMMITTED TO 2 THINGS THAT MAKE THEM UNWILLING TO PARTICIPATE AS A PARTNER IN ANY KIND OF NEGOTIATIONS.  FIRST OF ALL THEY’RE COMMITTED TO THE IMPLEMENTATION OF AN ISLAMIC AGENDA FOR THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE WHICH IS BY IT’S NATURE ANTI DEMOCRATIC.  SO YES, THEY WERE BROUGHT INTO POWER THROUGH A  DEMOCRATIC PROCESS IN AN ELECTION WHICH WAS FROM ALL INDICATIONS PERFECTLY FAIR BUT THERE’S NO REASON TO BELIEVE THAT THEY ACCEPT THE PROCESS OF GOVERNING IN A DEMOCRATIC WAY.  THE SECOND ISSUE IS THAT THEY ARE COMMITTED TO THE DESTRUCTION OF ISRAEL.  NOT TO ACCOMMODATIONS OR NEGOTIATION AND AN AGREEMENT ON HOW TO DIVIDE ON WHAT HAD BEEN PRE 1948 PALESTINE BUT RATHER TO THE END OF JEWISH PRESENCE IN THAT PART OF THE WORLD AND THE DESTRUCTION OF ISRAEL.  THERE’S NO REASON FOR THE ISRAELI POPULATION OR FOR THE WORLD POPULATION TO BELIEVE THAT HAMAS IN INTERESTED IN MOVING AWAY FROM THE USE OF VIOLENCE AND THE USE OF FORCE AGAINST BOTH ISRAELI MILITARY TARGETS AND CIVILIAN TARGETS BECAUSE THEY’VE NEVER SHOWN ANY EVIDENCE OF THAT.

 

SCOTT: SO CAN WE WORK WITH HAMAS THEN AS AMERICANS OR CAN ISRAEL WORK WITH HAMAS?

 

GERALD: WELL WE DON’T HAVE ANY CHOICE, THEY ARE THE GOVERNMENT, AT LEAST THE GOVERNMENT OPERATING IN GAZA SO THEN AT SOME LEVEL, NOBODY HAS, IT’S NOT OUR DECISION AS AMERICANS OR ISRAELIS WHO WE HAVE TO WORK WITH.  BUT AT THE SAME TIME IF THEY’RE WILLING TO RECOGNIZE THE LEGITIMACY OF ISRAEL RIGHT TO EXIST THEN THERE’S NO REASON TO BOTHER GIVING THEM THE TIME OF DAY.

SCOTT: LET’S LET PAT GET IN.  SO CAN WE WORK WITH HAMAS, WHAT SHOULD OUR ATTITUDE BE?

 

PAT: WELL I THINK ONE OF THE THINGS WE NEED TO PAY ATTENTION TO AND I THINK TOO MUCH WHAT HAPPENS IS THAT AMERICANS DO NOT GET ALL OF THE NEWS THAT’S COMING OUT OF ISRAEL PALESTINE.  WE DON’T GET THE TRUE NEWS AND THIS PARTICULAR SITUATION I’M HAVING A LITTLE BIT OF TROUBLE UNDERSTANDING WHY AMERICANS DON’T KNOW THIS BECAUSE IT WAS IN THE NEW YORK TIMES AND I BELIEVE IT WAS IN MAY THAT AND HATEM MAYBE YOU CAN HELP ME OUT HERE, I DON’T REMEMBER THE NAME OF THE HAMAS MEMBER WHO WROTE THE, IT WAS A, IT WAS A OP ED PIECE THAT APPEARED IN THE NEW YORK TIMES, YOU KNOW WHAT I’M TALKING ABOUT?  IN APRIL OR MAY AND HE ACTUALLY SAID AS A HIGH MEMBER OF HAMAS WHO WAS DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED IN PALESTINE THAT HAMAS WOULD IN FACT BE WILLING TO DECLARE TO HOODNA WHICH IS, THE TRANSLATION IS, CEASE FIRE.  SO WHAT IT ACTUALLY MEANS IS MORE THAN THAT.  IN MUSLIM YOU MIGHT BE ABLE TO EXPLAIN IT A LITTLE BETTER THAN I CAN BUT WHAT, THE WAY I UNDERSTAND IT IS THAT A HOODNA ENCOMPASSES NOT ONLY THE IDEA OF CEASE FIRE BUT ALSO THE IDEA THAT PEOPLE WOULD BEGIN TO LOOK AT EACH OTHER AS HUMAN BEINGS AND BEGIN TO LOOK AT THE DIFFERENCES.  AND THIS HOODNA THAT’S BEEN OFFERED BY HAMAS ON MORE THAN ONE OCCASION RANGES IN RANGE FROM TEN TO 50 YEARS AND THE SECOND POINT THAT GERALD MADE ABOUT RECOGNIZING ISRAEL IS THEY HAVE ALREADY RECOGNIZED IT AND I THINK THE POINT WAS MADE AGAIN IN THIS PARTICULAR BED PIECE THAT HAMAS RECOGNIZES ISRAEL AS A DE FACTO FACT ON THE GROUND.  THEY UNDERSTAND THAT ISRAEL EXISTS AND THEY ARE WILLING TO ACCEPT THAT FACT. 

 

GERALD: PAT, YOUR POINT ABOUT THE HOODNA AND YOUR POINT ABOUT THEIR RECOGNITION OF ISRAEL AS A FACT WORK VERY CLEARLY INTO WHAT I’M SAYING.  A HOODNA IS A DECLARATION OF THE CESSATION OF HOSTILITIES UNTIL HOSTILITIES ARE READY TO RESUME.  IT’S NO ACCEPTANCE OF A CHANGE IN THE STATUS QUO.  IT’S AN ACCEPTANCE OF THE TEMPORARY SUCCESSION OF HOSTILITIES.  THE FACT THAT THE HAMAS REPRESENTATIVE WROTE IN THE NEW YORK TIMES THAT HE RECOGNIZES THAT ISRAEL EXISTS IS NOTHING MORE THAN SIMPLY SAYING THAT YES, THERE’S A COUNTRY THAT HAS INTERNATIONAL RECOGNITION THAT EXISTS NEAR US.  IT’S A COUNTRY THAT WE CAN’T PRETEND ISN’T THERE, IT’S NOT A RECOGNITION OF THE RIGHT OF THE JEWS TO NATIONAL SELF DETERMINATION.  IT’S NOT A RECOGNITION THAT ISRAEL HAS A LEGITIMATE CLAIM TO SECURE AND RECOGNIZED INTERNATIONAL BORDERS.  ALL IT WAS WAS A RECOGNITION THAT THERE IS A COUNTRY THAT OTHER PEOPLE IN THE WORLD HAVE RECOGNIZED AND WE CAN’T PRETEND THAT IT’S NOT THERE. 

 

HATEM: I THINK LET ME SAY THIS, THAT THEY HAVE SAID THAT BECAUSE THEY WERE LOOKING FOR NOT UNILATERAL BUT BILATERAL RECOGNITION.  HAMAS WAS SAYING I’LL RECOGNIZE ISRAEL.  WHAT’S YOUR BORDERS?  WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?  I WANT TO RECOGNIZE THAT YOU HAVE 6 OR 7 BORDERS, YOU’RE GOING TO KEEP THIS SETTLEMENT?  DO I HAVE JERUSALEM, I WANT TO RECOGNIZE YOU ON WHAT BASIS?  THE ONLY COUNTRY IN THE WORLD THAT DOESN’T HAVE BORDERS IS ISRAEL.  AND WE ALL KNOW BUILDING THESE SETTLEMENTS IN THE WEST BANK TRYING TO CHANGE THE AREA DEMOCRATICALLY ON THE GROUND SO IT’S A DE FACTO.  SO HAMAS, WITH THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE THEY WILL AND THEY WILL HAVE TO RECOGNIZE ISRAEL BUT THEY’RE NOT GOING TO GO ALL OUT AND ACCEPT THIS ** ON THE GROUND BECAUSE IT’S NOT CORRECT, IT’S NOT HUMAN.  WE HAVE TO KNOW ALL THE CONDITIONS.  WE CANNOT GO OUT AND I’LL ACCEPT ISRAEL AND NOT EXPECT ISRAEL TO ACCEPT

 

SCOTT: SOMEHOW SOME MUTUAL RECOGNITION. 

 

HATEM: ***** HE SAID THIS IS THE BIGGEST MISTAKE OF THE *** AGREEMENT.  I HAVE TO CANCEL THAT AGREEMENT SO WE HAVE EVEN ON THE ISRAELI SIDE, WHO ARE PEOPLE WHO ARE NOT ACCEPTING THE PALESTINIANS RIGHT TO EXIST AND NOT EXPECTING INTERNATIONAL RESOLUTIONS.   WE HAVE PEOPLE EVEN IN THE PARLIAMENT, WE HAVE LIEBERMAN SAY THEY WANT TO THROW THE PALESTINIANS IN THE WATER, WE HAVE THE **, WE HAVE RELIGIOUS EVANGELISTS GROUPS ON BOTH SIDES AND IN THE ISRAELI SIDE EVEN IN THE PARLIAMENTS SO PEOPLE HAVE TO LISTEN WHEN THEY MAKE DECISIONS SO BOTH SIDES HAVE.

 

GERALD: THE RELIGIOUS FUNDAMENTALISTS IN ISRAEL ARE NOT BLOWING THEMSELVES UP IN RESTAURANTS IN PALESTINIAN TOWNS.  THEY’RE NOT MURDERING PALESTINIAN CHILDREN AS A WAY OF TRYING TO GARNER INTERNATIONAL SUPPORT AND THERE’S NOBODY IN THE ISRAELI POLITICAL SYSTEM WITH ANY DEGREE OF RECOGNITION INCLUDING LIEBERMAN AND CERTAINLY INCLUDING PEOPLE METENAHU WHO REJECT THE FUNDAMENTAL RIGHT OF THE PALESTINIANS TO NATIONAL SELF DETERMINATION.  THERE WAS A TIME, 30 YEARS AGO WHEN MANY ISRAELI POLITICIANS SAID NO, THERE’S NO SUCH THING AS PALESTINIANS, THE PALESTINIANS ARE WE, THE JEWS IN PALESTINE.  THAT’S NOT THE CASE ANYMORE.  ISRAELIS HAVE ALL ACCEPTED THAT THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE HAVE THE RIGHT TO NATIONAL SELF DETERMINATION AND ONCE THERE IS A MUTUAL RECOGNITION, ONCE THE SAME IS SAID LEGITIMATELY, NOT ON A TEMPORARY BASIS AND NOT SIMPLY AS A RECOGNITION THAT THERE IS A COUNTRY THAT WE CAN’T PRETEND DOESN’T EXIST, THEN THE PROCESS OF NEGOTIATING AND IMPLEMENTING AGREEMENTS IS CAUSE.

 

SCOTT: LET ME GIVE YOU JUST THIS BORDER ISSUE, I THINK THIS IS KIND OF AN IMPORTANT ONE IN A WAY SO IT SEEMS TO ME THAT MANY PEOPLE SAY THAT THE PALESTINIANS NEED OR SHOULD HAVE EFFECTIVE CONTROL MILITARY AND ECONOMIC OVER THE WEST BANK AND THAT THEY DON’T HAVE THAT AND THAT THAT’S A LEGITIMATE GRIEVANCE AT THE HEART OF THINGS, DOES THAT SEEM?

 

HATEM: EVENTUALLY IF YOU HAVE AN AGREEMENT THAT IS BACKED BY THE UNITED STATES AND THE UNITED NATIONS THEY’RE MORE POWERFUL THAN THE PALESTINIANS AND THEY HAVE THE MILITARY EQUIPMENT TO DEFEND THEMSELVES.  AT THIS POINT WE DON’T HAVE AN AGREEMENT SO AT THIS POINT ISRAEL CAN DO WHATEVER IT WANTS.

 

SCOTT:  WHAT KIND OF SELF DETERMINATION DO THE PALESTINIANS NEED AS THE BASIS?

 

HATEM: LET ME GIVE YOU AN EXAMPLE.  LET’S SAY THAT THEY PULLED OUT FROM GAZA AND EVERYBODY MADE A BIG DEAL ABOUT PULLING OUT FROM GAZA.  YOU GO TO GAZA NOW IT’S LIKE A BIG PRISON.  THEY DON’T CONTROL THE WATERS, THEY DON’T CONTROL THE AIR, WHEN THEY GO THROUGH LAND THEY CONTROL ALL THE BORDERS FOR GAZA.  THEY CONTROL THE FUEL, ELECTRICITY, DRINKING WATER SO BASICALLY IT’S A BIG PRISON.  WE DON’T WANT THAT.

 

SCOTT:  BUT IS IT A STEP IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION?

 

HATEM: NO BECAUSE PALESTINIANS ARE NOT WORKING TO IMPROVE THE CONDITIONS OF THEIR DETENTIONS.  THEY WANT TO END THE DETENTIONS.  THEY WANT TO HAVE A FREE COUNTRY WHERE THEY CAN MOVE TO THE ARAB COUNTRIES, IF THEY WANT TO GO TO SYRIA, JORDAN, EGYPT, GO IN AND BACK, THEY HAVE TO HAVE THEIR OWN PORT, THEY DON’T WANT TO BE MONITORED.  THEY WANT TO HAVE THE SAME RIGHT AS THE ISRAELIS.  NOW THE ISRAELIS HAVE THE RIGHT FOR THE SECURITY TO SAY WELL MAYBE THE ARAB COUNTRIES, WE’LL LOOK AT IRAQ AND SYRIA THAT WE HAVE TO BE MORE STRONG MILITARILY, THAT’S FINE.  THE PALESTINIAN MAYBE DON’T NEED THAT MILITARY POWER AS LONG AS THEY CAN MOVE FREELY IN THEIR COUNTRY. 

 

SCOTT: OK SO IS THAT, GERALD, DO YOU THINK THAT THEY’RE DEMAND, IS THAT SOMETHING

 

GERALD: NO I THINK THE PALESTINIANS SHOULD BE PURSUING THOSE GOALS.  THE QUESTION IS WHAT ARE THE RESPONSIBILITIES OF THE PALESTINIANS IN GETTING TO THE POINT WHERE THOSE GOALS ARE ACHIEVABLE?  HOW SHOULD, WHY SHOULD ALL OF THE RESPONSIBILITY FOR THOSE CHANGES BE PLACED ON THE SHOULDERS OF THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT?  THE FACT IS THE ISRAELIS PULLED OUT OF GAZA, AND SINCE THEN LITERALLY THOUSANDS OF ROCKETS HAVE BEEN LAUNCHED OUT OF GAZA INTO ISRAEL AND ISRAELIS HAVE BEEN KILLED AS A RESULT OF THOSE ROCKET ATTACKS, THERE...

 

PAT: ARE YOU AWARE OF HOW MANY HAVE BEEN KILLED?

 

GERALD: AROUND A DOZEN PEOPLE.  NOW YOU CAN TELL ME THAT THAT’S TRIVIAL.  I DON’T CONSIDER IT TRIVIAL.

 

PAT: I WOULD NOT SAY THAT 12 DEATHS ARE TRIVIAL.  I WOULD NOT SAY THAT BY ANY MEANS.  BUT I WOULD TELL YOU THAT THERE ARE PROBABLY 10, 12 TIMES THAT MANY PALESTINIANS WHO ARE KILLED ON A MONTHLY BASIS.

 

GERALD: 10 OR 12 TIMES AS MANY

 

PAT: THERE ARE

 

GERALD: BY WHAT VENTURE?

 

PAT: I KNOW THAT THE OTHER DAY I WAS READING IN THE HARAS, IT’S AN ONLINE FOR THOSE WHO MAY NOT KNOW, IT’S AN ON LINE ISRAELI NEWSPAPER AND THE EDITORIAL THERE TOLD ABOUT 3 PEOPLE WHO WERE KILLED BECAUSE THEY WERE AT THE BORDERS, THEY WERE AT THE WALL, THEY WERE NOT ALLOWED TO GET THROUGH.  ONE MAN WAS, HAD JUST RETURNED FROM THE HOSPITAL AND HE WAS STOPPED AT THE CHECKPOINT AND YOU KNOW HE SAID I’M SICK, I HAVE TO GO HOME AND THEY SAID NO WE’RE NOT GOING TO LET YOU GO HOME NOW SO HE STOOD IN THE SUN AND HE DIED.  A WOMAN WAS TRYING TO GET TO THE HOSPITAL, WAS NOT ALLOWED THROUGH THE CHECKPOINT AND SHE DIED.  THE SAME DAY THIS EDITORIAL WAS TELLING ABOUT THESE MANY DEATHS AND THE SAME DAY A YOUNG BOY WAS BEATEN TO DEATH BY ISRAELI SOLDIERS AND THIS I DON’T KNOW WHY BECAUSE THIS EDITORIAL DIDN’T MENTION WHY BUT WHAT HIS POINT WAS WAS WHOEVER WAS WRITING THIS EDITORIAL WAS SAYING THAT 3 DEATHS HAPPENED ON ONE DAY, THIS ONE DAY AND IN PALESTINE AND THEY HAPPEN SO OFTEN THAT THEY AREN’T EVEN REPORTED BY THE NEWS ANYMORE.

 

GERALD: AND THAT’S TRAGIC.  IT’S TRULY TRAGIC THAT THE STATE OF AFFAIRS BETWEEN ISRAELIS AND PALESTINIANS IS SUCH THAT PEOPLE ARE KILLED OR PEOPLE DIE AT CHECKPOINTS BECAUSE OF SECURITY MEASURES THAT THE ISRAELIS FEEL COMPELLED TO TAKE AND

 

PAT: WHAT THREAT DID THIS MAN WHO HAD COME FROM THE HOSPITAL

 

GERALD: THIS MAN POSED ABSOLUTELY NO THREAT AND THAT’S THE POINT AND THAT’S THE PROBLEM WITH HAMAS.  BECAUSE THE RESPONSIBILITY THAT I’D LIKE TO HEAR SOMEBODY TAKE IS THAT HAMAS NEEDS TO MAKE IT UNNECESSARY FOR THE ISRAELIS TO FEEL THREATENED BY PEOPLE CROSSING BORDERS FOR

 

PAT: AND WHAT WOULD IT TAKE?  WHAT WOULD YOU LIKE HAMAS TO DO?

 

GERALD: HAMAS NEEDS NUMBER ONE TO DISARM, NUMBER TWO TO

 

PAT: WOULD THE ISRAELIS BE WILLING TO DISARM?

 

GERALD: THE ISRAELIS ARE A SOVEREIGN STATE THAT ARMS FOR SELF DEFENSE.  HAMAS NEEDS TO STAND UP AND SAY THAT THE JEWS HAVE THE RIGHT TO NATIONAL SELF DETERMINATION IN THEIR ANCIENT HOMELAND, THAT THEY’RE NOT INTRUDERS ON OUR HOMELAND BUT RATHER THEY ARE PEOPLE WITH WHOM WE CAN LIVE NEXT TO AS NEIGHBORS PERMANENTLY, NOT TEMPORARILY BUT PERMANENTLY BECAUSE WE HAVE TO SHARE THIS EARTH AND WE HAVE TO SHARE THIS IMPORTANT PIECE OF LAND.  I THINK THAT THOSE TWO STATEMENTS AND NUMBER THREE WHICH WOULD BE OF IMMENSE BENEFIT TO THE PALESTINIANS AND ULTIMATELY WOULD BENEFIT OTHER PEOPLE AS WELL IS TO SAY WE ACCEPT THE PRINCIPLES OF DEMOCRATIC GOVERNMENTS, THAT THERE ARE EQUAL RIGHTS, THERE’S AN INDEPENDENT JUDICIARY, THAT WOMEN HAVE RIGHTS, THAT THERE SHOULD BE FREEDOM OF SPEECH, YOU TALK ABOUT READING AN ISRAELI NEWSPAPER THAT PEOPLE AROUND THE WORLD READ IN HEBREW AND IN ENGLISH, THERE IS NO EQUIVALENT, NOT JUST AMONG THE PALESTINIANS BUT ANYWHERE IN THE ARAB WORLD, THERE IS NO EQUIVALENT, NO COUNTER PART TO HARAS BECAUSE THEY LACK THOSE DEMOCRATIC RIGHTS THAT ARE

 

PAT: WELL I GET AN ONLINE NEWSPAPER FROM PALESTINE EVERY SINGLE DAY.   WOULD YOU LIKE ME TO EMAIL THAT ON TO YOU?

 

SCOTT: I WANT TO KNOW ABOUT HAMAS DEMOCRATIC

 

HATEM: WHEN YOU’RE TALKING ABOUT HAMAS BLOWING UP YOU KNOW SUICIDE BOMBING.  YOU DON’T HAVE THE TECHNICAL EQUIPMENT THAT ISRAELI HAS WHO CAN FLY AN F16 AND BLOW UP A BUILDING AND WHOEVER IN IT.  SO TECHNICALITY IS ISRAEL USE ILLEGITIMATE AS WELL AND MUCH MORE OF COURSE.  THEY HAVE OCCUPIED ALL THE TERRITORY BY USING VIOLENT WHICH IS WAR AND THIS IS THE STRONGEST FORCE AND I’M GOING TO GO BACK TO THIS HAMAS.  HAMAS IS RECENT.  HAMAS HAS BEEN HERE MAYBE 15 20 YEARS.  THE OCCUPATION HAS BEEN THERE SINCE 1967.  THE HAMAS AND THE BOMBING IS NOT THE DISEASE, IT’S THE SYMPTOM.  THE DISEASE IS THE OCCUPATION.  YOU HAVE IN THE OCCUPATION ALL THIS BECAME

 

GERALD: SO THERE WAS ALSO NO OCCUPATION. 

 

HATEM: NO LISTEN TO ME.  IT WAS AFTER 67, 68, 69.  HAMAS WAS NOT UNTIL THE 15 YEARS AGO SO ALL THE OCCUPATION, GRABBING LAND CHANGING JERUSALEM.  WHATEVER YOU SAY, HAMAS WILL HAVE NO PROBLEM DECLARE BUT BASICALLY THEY WILL NOT DO IT UNLESS ISRAELI GOVERNMENT SAY WE DON’T NEED ANY MORE SOVEREIGN.  WE HAVE SO MANY RESOLUTION, WE HAVE SO MANY TREATIES WE HAVE TO IMPLEMENT, EVEN BY BORDERS BUT THEY SEE ON A DAILY BASIS, ISRAELI GOVERNMENT BUILDING MORE SETTLEMENTS, THEY ARE TAKING THE LAND AWAY.  INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY TELL THEM TO STOP THEY DO IT ANYWAY THEY PULL FROM GAZA, THEY TAKE MORE FROM THE WEST BANK.  WE’RE NOT GOING TO GIVE JERUSALEM.  THEY BUILT MORE ON EAST JERUSALEM.  IT NOT BELONG TO THEM.  IT’S NOT THEIRS BUT THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT WILL DO IT INSISTENTLY TO CHANGE THE AREA DEMOGRAPHICALLY AND THEY WERE SAYING IT’S REALITY ON THE GROUND.  I DON’T WANT HAMAS TO ACCEPT THE STATUS QUO BECAUSE IT NOT FAIR.

 

SCOTT: SO HERE WE SEEM TO BE AT AN IMPASSE IN A CERTAIN WAY THAT IN A CERTAIN WAY THAT ISRAEL OR AT LEAST MANY ISRAELIS FEEL THAT HAMAS HAS TO MAKE STEPS FIRST.  HAMAS IN MANY WAYS FEELS LIKE THE ISRAELIS HAVE TO MAKE MANY STEPS FIRST BEFORE THERE CAN BE AN AGREEMENT. 

 

HATEM: WE’LL DO IT TOGETHER.

 

SCOTT: RIGHT BUT HERE YOU COULD SAY THERE’S ALMOST A LACK OF TRUST ON BOTH SIDES, I CAN SENSE WHERE A COMMITMENT IS SORT OF NOT REALLY TRUSTED UNTIL THEY REALLY SEE IT IN ACTION BUT OF COURSE YOU CAN’T REALLY GIVE WHAT YOU’RE GOING TO GIVE UNTIL YOU FEEL LIKE THERE’S A COMMITMENT ON BOTH SIDES.

 

HATEM: I SENSE IT’S ALREADY *** WE HAVE SO MANY AGREEMENTS.  WE HAVE THE UNITED STATES REPEALING THE UNITED NATIONS, THEY HAVE *** THEY HAVE TO BE IMPLEMENTED.  THE PALESTINIANS AGREED WITH ALL THIS AGREEMENT.  WHAT THE PROBLEM IS FROM THE ISRAELI SIDE.  THEY WANT MORE.  THEY ALWAYS FEEL WITH THIS UNCONDITIONAL SUPPORT FROM THE UNITED STATES THAT THEY CAN GET MORE.

 

SCOTT: WE ONLY HAVE ABOUT 5 MINUTES LEFT SO I WANT TO TALK ABOUT THE UNITED STATES HERE AND THE UNITED STATES ROLE.  MAYBE WE CAN START WITH PAT.  WHAT YOU SEE THAT THE UNITED STATES COULD DO TO AMELIORATE THE SITUATION?  WHAT WOULD BE A FEW STEPS?

 

PAT: WELL WHAT I WOULD LIKE TO SEE AND I’LL TRY TO MAKE IT QUICK BUT I WOULD LIKE TO SEE IS WHERE THE UNITED STATES TO MAKE SOME DEMANDS ON THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT, I WOULD LIKE TO SEE.  IT SEEMS TO ME THAT IN THE NAME OF ISRAELI SECURITY WE HAVE COMMITTED 2 SETS OF REALITIES IN ISRAEL PALESTINE.  WE HAVE ELEVATED THE ISRAELIS TO SUBURBIA AND WE HAVE RELEGATED THE PALESTINIANS TO GHETTOS AND SLUMS AND I WOULD LIKE TO SEE SOME OF THE MONEY THAT GOES TO ISRAEL BE DEPENDENT ON SOME CHANGES THAT WE SEE MOVING BACK THE OCCUPATION.  I THINK THE OCCUPATION HAS TO END.

 

SCOTT: GERALD SAME QUESTION TO YOU.  WHAT SHOULD THE UNITED STATES ROLE BE IN THE ISRAEL PALESTINE CONFLICT?

 

GERALD: THE UNITED STATES SHOULD NOT SEE ITS ROLE AS BEING INDIFFERENT OR IMPARTIAL.  THERE’S A GOAL OUT THERE AND THE GOAL IS PEACEFUL COEXISTENCE SIDE BY SIDE WITH MUTUAL RECOGNITION AND INTERNATIONALLY RECOGNIZED BORDERS.  THE UNITED STATES IS A MORE EFFECTIVE MEDIATOR WHEN IT SAYS HERE’S WHAT WE THINK IS RIGHT ABOUT THE SITUATION AND HERE’S WHAT WE THINK IS WRONG ABOUT THE SITUATION AND AS IT HAPPENS I THINK MORE OFTEN THAN NOT, THE U.S. AGREES WITH ISRAELS PERCEPTION AND THAT’S NOT A BAD THING.  THAT’S A CONSTRUCTIVE THING AND IT HAS TO BE ACCEPTED AS SUCH.  THE UNITED STATES NEEDS TO BE CLEAR IN ITS ASPIRATIONS AND ITS ASPIRATIONS ARE TO MAINTAIN FRIENDLY RELATIONS WITH ISRAEL AND WITH THE PALESTINIANS, THAT CAN’T HAPPEN WITH HAMAS BECAUSE HAMAS HAS SHOWN NO WILLINGNESS TO BE IN NEGOTIATION WITH THE U.S. OR THE WEST AS A WHOLE.  I THINK IT HAS TO TAKE A STRONG ROLE IN CONTINUING TO PROVIDE ECONOMIC AND MILITARY AID TO BOTH SIDES FOR DEFENSIVE PURPOSES. 

 

SCOTT: AND CAN, SHOULD THE UNITED STATES WORK PARTICULARLY WITH HABAS THEN? 

 

GERALD: ABSOLUTELY.  HE’S THE BEST HOPE THAT THE WEST, ISRAEL AND THE UNITED STATES HAVE OF SEEING PROGRESS IN THAT PART OF THE WORLD. 

 

SCOTT: HATEM SAME QUESTION TO YOU, WHAT DO YOU SEE THE UNITED STATES, WHAT SHOULD THE UNITED STATES DO TO MAKE THE SITUATION

 

HATEM: ONE THING VERY IMPORTANT.  NO MORE ** TO ANYBODY.  WE DON’T NEED MORE WARS.  WE NEED FINANCIAL AIDS TO LIFT THIS COMMUNITY UP SO DEFINITELY NO MILITARY, NO PALESTINIANS, NO TO ISRAELIS, THIS IS DEVASTATING, THIS IS BAD POLICY.  THE SECOND THING YOU HAVE TO BE TRUSTED BY BOTH SIDES.  UNITED STATES BY ITSELF IS CONTROLLING THE UNITED NATIONS.  YOU HAVE SO MANY PEOPLE IN THE WORLD WHETHER YOU MOVE DOWN TO BRAZIL, WHETHER YOU GO TO JAPAN EVERYBODY AGREES WITH UNITED NATIONS RESOLUTION.  THE PROBLEM WITH WASHINGTON IS THE LOBBY IS DEFECTING WE GOT CARTER FOR EXAMPLE, HE’S BEEN PRESIDENT FOR 30 YEARS.  HE’S BEEN TRYING TO ACCOMPLISH PEACE IN THE MIDDLE EAST NOW HE COMES BACK AND HE WRITES A BOOK AND EVERYBODY CRITICIZE IT.  HE SAY

GERALD: HAVE YOU READ THE BOOK?

 

HATEM: YES I HAVE.

 

GERALD: IT’S A TERRIBLE BOOK.

 

HATEM: IT’S AN EXCELLENT BOOK AND I SUGGEST IT TO ANYBODY.  IT’S AN EXCELLENT BOOK AND I SUGGEST IT TO ANYBODY.  WHETHER YOU LIKE IT OR NOT THE MAN HAS BEEN THERE FOR 35 YEARS.  I CANNOT ACCEPT IT BECAUSE I DON’T LIKE IT AND THAT’S WHAT HE THINKS.  HE’S BEEN THERE AND HE THINK THIS IS WHAT SHOULD BE DONE.  SO IT’S AN EXCELLENT BOOK AND HE WAS SAYING IS WHATEVER WE HAVE BEEN DOING WE HAVE TO STOP.  WE CANNOT SUPPORT ISRAEL WITHOUT ASKING HER DEMAND TO FOLLOW THIS U.N. RESOLUTIONS.  YOU HAVE TO GIVE THE PALESTINIANS THEIR RIGHT FROM 1967.  YOU HAVE TO GIVE THE RIGHT TO RETURN.  YOU HAVE TO GIVE JERUSALEM.  WE CANNOT KEEP JORDAN.

 

SCOTT: SO THAT’S SOMETHING LIKE THE OSLO ACCORDS. 

 

GERALD: THE RIGHT OF RETURN IS THE IDEA THAT THE DESCENDANTS OF THE PALESTINIAN REFUGEES FROM 1948 CAN RETURN TO THEIR HOMES WITHIN ISRAEL.  THAT’S THE NON STARTER.

 

HATEM: THE JERUSALEM QUESTION THERE WERE LOTS OF PROPOSALS THAT WERE RAISED.  CLINTON AND DENNIS ROSS AND **** RAISED PROPOSALS TO CREATE A PALESTINIAN CAPITAL IN JERUSALEM IN 2000.  ARAFAT AND HIS FOLLOWERS REJECTED THAT AND STARTED THE SECOND

 

SCOTT: WELL WE ONLY HAVE A COUPLE OF SECONDS.  SO ONE LAST THING VERY QUICKLY.

 

HATEM: IN CARTER BOOKS HE WAS WITH BARAQ AND HE SAY THAT DIDN’T HAPPEN HE DOES NOT BLAME THE PALESTINIANS.

 

GERALD: HE WAS NOT WITH BARAQ.  CARTER WAS NOT THERE.

 

SCOTT: WE ONLY HAVE A FEW SECONDS LEFT.  I FEEL LIKE THIS IS ONE OF THESE ISSUES WHERE EVERY POINT CAN BE CONTENTIOUS AND WE ALWAYS HAVE TO DO MORE RESEARCH AND WE HOPE THAT YOU AT HOME DO THAT AND I’D LIKE TO THANK THE PANELISTS FOR GETTING THIS DISCUSSION GOING AND WE HOPE THAT IT CONTINUES AT HOME.  THANK YOU VERY MUCH.