Steroid Use
ETHICAL PERSPECTIVES ON THE NEWS IS PRODUCED BY THE INTER-RELIGIOUS COUNCIL OF LINN COUNTY WHICH IS SOLELY RESPONSIBLE FOR ITS CONTENT.  THE VIEWS AND OPINIONS EXPRESSED ON THIS PROGRAM DO NOT NECESSARILY REFLECT THOSE OF THE STAFF AND MANAGEMENT OF KCRG-TV 9.
 
GOOD MORNING AND WELCOME TO ETHICAL PERSPECTIVES ON THE NEWS.  MY NAME IS SCOTT SAMUELSON - I'M A PROFESSOR OF PHILOSOPHY AT KIRKWOOD COMMUNITY COLLEGE.  ANY DAY NOW BARRY BONDS IS PROBABLY GOING TO BREAK THE ALL-TIME HOME RUN RECORD, AND YET MANY BELIEVE THE ACCUSATION OF THE BOOK, GAME OR SHADOWS, THAT HE HAS EXTENSIVELY USED GROWTH HORMONE AND STEROIDS.  RIGHT NOW, THE TOUR DE FRANCE IS BEING RACED BUT WITHOUT LAST YEAR'S VICTOR, FLOYD LANDIS, WHO LESS THAN A WEEK AFTER HIS 2006 VICTORY TESTED POSITIVE FOR AN ELEVATED TESTOSTERONE AND EPI-TESTOSTERONE LEVEL, THOUGH HE HAS DISPUTED THE RESULTS OF THE TEST.  DOPING IS A PROBLEM IN MANY SPORTS, MOST VISIBLY AT THE HIGHEST LEVELS.  BUT HOW BIG A PROBLEM IS IT?  DOES DOPING DESTROY THE INTEGRITY OF THE SPORT?  IS DOPING BEING HANDLED AS WELL AS IT COULD BE?  ARE WE IN A WITCH HUNT, TREATING ATHLETES AS GUILTY UNTIL PROVEN INNOCENT - UNTIL PROVEN OTHERWISE?  OR ARE WE TOO LAX IN RATING SPORTS AND DOPING?  WHO SUFFERS, AND WHERE DO WE DRAW THE LINE THAT DIVIDES THE PROPER USE OF THE DRUGS FROM THE IMPROPER USE?
 
WE HAVE THREE FINE PANELISTS WITH US TO HELP SORT THROUGH THIS ISSUE.  JACK ROEDER, THE GENERAL MANAGER OF THE CEDAR RAPIDS KERNELS - THANKS FOR BEING ON.
 
ROEDER:  YOU'RE WELCOME.
 
SAMUELSON:  J.R. OGDEN THE SPORTS EDITOR FOR THE CEDAR RAPIDS GAZETTE - THANK YOU.  AND RICK ANDERSON, A PHARMACIST AND SPORTS FAN.  THANKS FOR BEING HERE.
 
LET'S TRY TO PUT OUR FINGER ON WHAT DOPING IS AND WHAT'S WRONG WITH IT - IF ANYTHING.  SO MAYBE RICK, LET'S START WITH YOU.  TELL US A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THE DRUGS THAT ARE USUALLY CONSIDERED DOPING AND WHAT ARE THEIR EFFECTS?
 
ANDERSON:  OK.  DOPING REALLY CAN REALLY BE KIND OF DEFINED AS TAKING A DRUG OR SUBSTANCE THAT ENHANCES YOUR PERFORMANCE.  THESE ARE  DRUGS OR SUBSTANCES THAT ARE BANNED OR CONSIDERED ILLEGAL IN THE SPORT.  THERE'S SOME REALLY MAJOR ONES.  THE FIRST ONE WOULD BE ANABOLIC STEROIDS.  WHEN YOU HEAR THE WORD STEROIDS WITH BODY BUILDING AND ATHLETES.  AND WHAT THEY DO IS INCREASE MUSCLE MASS AND ALSO DECREASE BODY FAT. SO YOU'RE ABLE TO GET THE BIGGER MUSCLES, LEANER BODY.  OF COURSE, ALONG WITH THAT, YOU HAVE THE SIDE EFFECTS.  MOST OF THE TIME, THAT'S NOT ENOUGH TO DETER ATHLETES FROM USING.  PHYSICALLY, THEY CAN RAISE YOUR BLOOD PRESSURE, INCREASE YOUR CHOLESTEROL.  ALSO KIND OF MAKE YOU GET ACNE.  ALSO MALES BECOME STERILE, FEMALES CAN GROW MORE HAIR.  PSYCHOLOGICALLY, IT CAN CAUSE SOME  AGGRESSION. YOU'VE HEARD OF THE TERM ROID OR H.  ALSO IT CAN JUST CAUSE DEPRESSION AND IRRITABILITY.  ALONG WITH THAT THERE'S A PRODUCT CALLED EPO.  WHAT THAT DOES IT INCREASES THE RED BLOOD CELLS IN YOUR BODY AND RED BLOOD CELLS ARE USED TO TRANSPORT OXYGEN IN YOUR BODY, SO WHEN YOU HAVE MORE RED BLOOD CELLS, YOU'RE ABLE TO HAVE BETTER STAMINA AND ENDURANCE.  ALSO - ANOTHER WAY YOU COULD DO THAT IS ACTUALLY TRANSFUSING YOUR OWN BLOOD INTO YOUR BODY BEFORE THE EVENT.  OF COURES, THAT'S A REALLY HARD ONE TO DETECT.
 
SAMUELSON:  RIGHT.  AND THAT'S CALLED BLOOD DOPING, RIGHT?
 
ANDERSON:  RIGHT, EXACTLY.  ANOTHER ONE WHICH IS STARTING TO BE USED IS ACTUALLY GOING IN  AND CHANGING THE DNA OF A TISSUE.  FOR EXAMPLE, GOING IN A TISSUE THAT PRODUCES THE RED BLOOD CELLS OR THE TISSUES THAT PRODUCE THE GROWTH HORMONE.  ACTUALLY GOING IN THERE AND MAKING THOSE CELLS PRODUCE MORE OF THOSE PRODUCTS IS ANOTHER WAY OF KIND OF ENHANCING YOUR PERFORMANCE.
 
SAMUELSON:  AND SO HOW MUCH DO THEY ENHANCE PERFORMANCE WOULD YOU SAY?
 
ANDERSON:  YOU KNOW I THINK THAT'S KIND OF A SUBJECTIVE PERSON TO PERSON.  ANYWHERE I'VE READ FROM LIKE EVEN JUST LIKE A TENTH OF A PERCENT UP TO EVEN SEVEN OR EIGHT PERCENT, WHICH DOESN'T SEEM LIKE A LOT, BUT LIKE WHEN YOU'RE CYCLING OVER A MOUNTAIN OR YOU KNOW THAT KIND OF THING, CAN MAKE A BIG DIFFERENCE.
 
SAMUELSON:  SO LET'S NOW TALK ABOUT WHAT'S WRONG WITH IT?  J.R., MAYBE WE CAN TURN TO YOU.  WHAT'S WRONG WITH DOPING, IF ANYTHING?
 
OGDEN:  WELL I THINK ANYTHING THAT ENHANCES YOUR PERFORMANCE, YOUR ABILITY THAT'S UNNATURAL.  I MEAN I'M TALKING ABOUT YOU KNOW  - NOT WEIGHT LIFTING.  AND I KNOW THERE'S PROTEIN SHAKES AND THERE'S THINGS LIKE THAT THAT PEOPLE CAN TAKE, BUT A LOT OF THAT IS NATURAL FORMING AND THINGS THAT ARE ACTUALLY GOOD FOR YOUR BODY.  I THINK WHEN YOU DRAW THE LINE OBVIOUSLY WHEN THEY'RE ILLEGAL WITHIN THE SPORT.  I THINK ALSO ANYTHING THAT'S DANGEROUS TO YOUR BODY TO LONG TERM.  I THINK THE PROBLEM WITH THAT IS THAT A LOT OF ATHLETES DON'T LOOK AT THE LONG TERM EFFECTS. THEY LOOK AT  THE SHORT TERM GAINS  AND NOT AT THE LONG TERM DISADVANTAGES THEY'RE GOING TO HAVE.  BUT ANYTHING THAT GIVES UNFAIR ADVANTAGE ILLEGALLY - I THINK YOU KNOW THAT'S  NOT THE NATURAL TRAINING, I THINK IS WRONG AND IT NEEDS TO BE STOPPED.  AND THE NEVER ENDING QUESTION IS HOW DO YOU STOP IT?  AS RICK MENTIONED, WE'VE GOT ALL THESE NEW THINGS, AND EVERY TIME YOU FIND A WAY TO TEST IT, THEY FIND A NEW WAY TO BEAT IT.  IT'S A DIFFICULT SITUATION - IT'S DIFFICULT FOR THE DRUG TESTERS - AND I GUESS THE ONLY PEOPLE GETTING RICH ARE THE  ONES WHO MAKE THESE DRUGS, AND THEN THEY CAN HIDE ALL THIS STUFF.
 
SAMUELSON:  RIGHT. JACK, SAME QUESTION TO YOU - WHAT'S WRONG WITH DOPING IF ANYTHING - AND ALSO HOW MUCH DO YOU SEE IT AFFECTING THE PERFORMANCE OF ATHLETES WOULD YOU SAY?
 
ROEDER:  WELL, I DON'T KNOW THAT I  COULD SAY IT ANY BETTER THAN WHAT J.R.DID BECAUSE IF YOU TAKE EVERYTHING ELSE OUT OF THE MIX, THE DOWNSIDE, WHICH WAS TOUCHED ON PREVIOUSLY, IS THE NEGATIVE THINGS THAT CAN HAPPEN TO YOUR BODY.  IF YOU TAKE EVERYTHING OUT OF THE MIX, THAT IN ITSELF IS THE REASON TO STAY AS FAR AWAY FROM THAT TYPE OF THING IF YOU CAN.  AND J.R. SAID, ANYTHING THAT  ARTIFICIALLY CHANGES THE RESULTS I DON'T THINK IS RIGHT.  WE ALL WANT TO BE THE BEST WE CAN AND WE'RE GOING TO TRY AND TAKE ADVANTAGES, BUT MOST OF THAT SHOULD BE HARD WORK - AND SUPPLEMENTS ARE FINE, AS HE HAD MENTIONED, SOME OF THE PROTEIN SHAKES OR WHATEVER - BUT THERE IS A LINE THERE THAT WHEN YOU CROSS THAT, IT'S NOT RIGHT.  IT'S NOT HEALTHY.  YOU MENTIONED THAT - I THINK RICK MENTIONED - THAT IT CAN ENHANCE YOUR PERFORMANCE MAYBE UP TO SEVEN, EIGHT PERCENT.  WELL J.R. WOULD TELL YOU THAT'S A LOT.  IN A GOOD ATHLETE, IF THAT'S TRUE AND THAT'S WHERE THAT NUMBER COMES IN OR CAN, THAT'LL MAKE A BIG DIFFERENCE.
 
SAMUELSON:  RIGHT.  AND  THEN I ALMOST WONDER IF IT DOESN'T MAKE THE  DIFFERENCE SOMETIMES BETWEEN SOMEONE WHO CAN MAKE IT TO THE MAJORS SAY OR SOMEONE WHO COULDN'T.
 
OGDEN:  A LOT OF TIMES AT THAT LEVEL, YOU'RE TALKING  A VERY FINE LINE OF BEING GREAT OR BEING GOOD AND BEING GREAT.  AND SEVEN-EIGHT PERCENT, YOU MIGHT BE TWO PERCENT OFF OF BEING GREAT, A MILLION DOLLAR OR MULTI-MILLION DOLLAR PERSON AND THAT  FOUR PERCENT, FIVE PER CENT, SEVEN PERCENT - AND ALL OF A SUDDEN, YOU'RE THE ALL STAR.  AND YOU GO UP FROM BEING AVERAGE TO BEING AN ALL STAR, BECAUSE THE LINE AT THAT PROFESSIONAL LEVELS IS SO THIN.  I MEAN YOU LOOK AT A SPRINTER, THE OLD CANADIAN,  BEN JOHNSON AND SOME OF THESE GUYS, YOU'RE TALKING TENTHS OF A SECOND, I MEAN HUNDREDTHS OF A SECOND FROM A WORLD RECORD, AND THAT'S - WHATEVER THE PER CENTAGE IS THERE, I DON'T KNOW, I DON'T KNOW THE MATH ON IT - BUT IT'S GOING TO BE PRETTY MINISCULE. 
 
SAMUELSON:  RIGHT.  BUT SO THEN WHEN WE KIND OF PUT THAT TOGETHER WITH 'THE FACT THAT THESE DRUGS ARE WIDELY AVAILABLE, HARD TO TEST FOR, IT IS A KIND OF POTENT TEMPTATION FOR AN ATHLETE TO HAVE TO FACE.  I MEAN IF I'M AN ATHLETE RUNNING POINT ONE SECOND BEHIND SOMEONE ELSE, AND I JUST CAN'T GET OVER THAT HUMP, I  THINK WELL, GEEZ, IF I CAN JUST HAVE THIS, THIS, THIS, IT MIGHT MAKE  THAT LITTLE BIT OF DIFFERENCE, THAT'S STRONG TEMPTATION, VIZ.  ME BEING A PROFESSIONAL ATHLETE VERSUS ME NOT BEING A PROFESSIONAL.
 
OGDEN:  AND I THINK THAT'S PROBABLY HOW IT ALL STARTED - I MEAN JUST TO GET ME OVER THAT LITTLE EDGE, JUST TO GIVE ME THAT ONE EXTRA STEP, JUST TO GIVE ME THAT LITTLE BIT MORE POWER WHEN I SWING THE BAT OR WHATEVER IT MIGHT BE, IS PROBABLY WHERE IT ALL STARTED.  AND THEN IT GOT TO WHERE WELL, IF HE'S DOING IT, I'M GOING TO DO IT, IF SHE'S DOING IT, I'M GOING TO DO IT, AND BOY, EVERYONE IS DOING IT, I'LL DO IT.  AND IT'S A NEVER-ENDING CYCLE THAT'S - I KNOW BASEBALL HAS TAKEN A LOT OF STEPS TO CLEAN IT UP, PROBABLY NOT AS MUCH AS THEY WOULD TELL YOU THEY HAVE, PROBABLY NOT AS CLEAN AS IT WAS.  I KNOW THE NFL, THE NBA HAVE TAKEN SOME STEPS IN THAT DIRECTION.  BUT YOU KNOW, AS RICK MENTIONED, THERE'S SO MANY NEW THINGS OUT THERE, AND TO MASK IT, THAT I DON'T KNOW IF WE'RE EVER GOING TO BE CLEAN, COMPLETELY CLEAN.
 
SAMUELSON:  YEAH.  ON THAT ISSUE, RICK - THAT DOES SEEM TO BE A PROBLEM, DOESN'T IT - THAT DRUGS ARE THE KIND OF THING YOU CAN ALWAYS COME UP WITH SLIGHTLY NEW ONES, YOU CAN FIND DRUGS TO MASK THE DRUGS THAT WE'RE USING - IS THIS A WINNABLE BATTLE?
 
ANDERSON:  I DON'T THINK SO, BECAUSE  ANY ORGANIC CHEMIST CAN TAKE TESTOSTERONE OR PRODUCT OF TESTOSTERONE AND ACTUALLY CHANGE THE CHEMICAL STRUCTURE BY JUST TAKING SOME UNIMPORTANT PART OF THAT STRUCTURE OFF OR ADDING SOMETHING THAT DOESN'T AFFECT HOW IT WORKS, BUT THEN IT WON'T SHOW UP ON THE TEST BECAUSE IT'S DIFFFERENT ENOUGH TO WHERE IT WON'T SHOW AND REALLY I DON'T THINK YOU HAVE TO HAVE A PHD TO COME UP WITH SOME OF THOSE FORMULATIONS AND GET THE EQUIPMENT TO DO THAT.
 
SAMUELSON:  RIGHT.  WELL LET ME KIND OF SAY PLAY DEVIL'S ADVOCATE FOR A SECOND, BUT I GUESS I JUST DO WANT TO TRY TO PUT MY FINGER ON WHAT MAKES THESE SO WRONG.  AND SINCE YOU MENTION LIKE VITAMINS OR VARIOUS THINGS WE ACCEPT AS BEING NATURAL OR WE THINK IF AS BEING ACCEPTABLE.  I EVEN THINK - AND A LOT OF PEOPLE MAKE THE DISTINCTION BETWEEN WHAT THEY CALL ENHANCEMENT VS. THERAPY.  THE DRUGS FOR THERAPY ARE FINE.  THE STEROIDS FOR INSTANCE FOR THERAPY MIGHT BE ACCEPTABLE.  BUT STEROIDS THAT GET YOU UP TO NORMAL ARE FINE, BUT STEROIDS TO GET YOU ABOVE NORMAL ARE SOMEHOW WRONG.  AND THAT SEEMS LIKE THAT'S A GOOD DISTINCTION AND I AGREE WITH IT.  BUT I DO THINK THAT IT SEEMS A LITTLE HARD SOMETIMES TO DRAW THE LINE.  AS I WAS KIND OF DOING SOME RESEARCH, I SEE THAT TIGER WOODS  FOR INSTANCE GOT LASER SURGERY ON HIS EYES, WHICH MANY PEOPLE DO TO IMPROVE THEIR VISION.  BUT THAT SOMETIMES YOU CAN IN FACT YOU CAN MAKE YOUR VISION BETTER THAN 20-20 WITH THIS SURGERY OR THAT YOUR VISION COMES OUT A LITTLE AHEAD.  I MEAN IS THAT SO MINISCULE THAT IT DOESN'T MAKE A DIFFERENCE, OR IS THAT NOW PUSHING THE BOUNDARY BETWEEN THERAPY AND ENHANCEMENT. OR ANOTHER CASE - FLOYD LANDIS DECIDES THE ACCUSATIONS AGAINST HIM THAT HE IS GETTING A HIP REPLACEMENT.  DOES THAT MAKE A SIGNIFICANT DIFFERENCE IN HIS PERFORMANCE, PARTICULARLY THAT THE HIP CAN BE MADE IN SUCH A WAY THAT IT GIVES YOU ADDED MOTION OR SOMETHING.  I MEAN IT SEEMS LIKE IT SEEMS IT IS KIND OF A HARD LINE TO DRAW AT LEAST IN CERTAIN CASES.  MAYBE THERE ARE CERTAIN THINGS THAT CROSS IT REALLY CLEARLY.  BUT IT  DOES SEEM LIKE THERE MIGHT BE SOME GREY AREA HERE THAT'S HARD TO DEAL WITH.  DO YOU GET A SENSE OF THAT  OR NOT?
 
OGDEN:  WELL I THINK IT GOES BACK TO WHAT IS LEGAL, WHAT'S REALLY BANNED AND WHAT'S NOT.  YOU KNOW YEARS AGO, THE BUTEROL - THE INHALERS THAT THAT PEOPLE USE FOR SPORTS WITH  ASTHMA.  THAT'S BANNED IN A LOT OF AREAS, I BELIEVE.  I KNOW A MAN HERE LOCALLY WHO'S DONE SOME STUDY ON THIS WHO SAID THAT ONE YEAR THE SWISS WHOLE TEAM  SHOWED UP WITH SPORTS-INDUCED ASTHMA BECAUSE THEY ALL WANTED TO USE THE INHALER THAT GAVE THEM A LITTLE BIT OF AN EDGE.  THERE'S A LITTLE STEROID IN THERE I BELIEVE. 
 
ANDERSON: RIGHT. 
 
OGDEN:  AND WE JOKED ABOUT THAT.  AND THERE IS A FINE LINE OF COURSE , AND BECASUE OF THAT, THAT'S WHY YOU HAVE THE PROBLEM, BECAUSE WELL, YOU KNOW, "I DIDN'T KNOW IT HAD SOMETHING IN THERE," BUT I THINK YOU'VE GOT TO GO BACK TO THE RULES.  I MEAN THERE'S REASONS THERE'S CERTAIN THINGS ON THAT LIST THAT ARE BANNED AND THINGS THAT ARE ACCEPTABLE.  AND I THINK THAT'S WHAT IT GOES BACK TO.  50 YEARS AGO, PEOPLE WEREN'T LIFTING WEIGHTS.  AND  ALL OF A SUDDEN, THEY DECIDED THAT WAS A GREAT WAY TO DO.  BUT THAT'S A NATURAL WAY AND THAT'S SOMETHING EVERYONE CAN DO.  AND IT'S NOT ILLEGAL, OBVIOUSLY.  BUT AGAIN, I AGREE, THERE IS A FINE LINE.  BUT I THINK YOU HAVE TO GO BACK TO THE LIST OF WHAT'S BANNED AND WHAT'S OK.
 
ANDERSON:  YEAH.  HOPEFULLY THE OLYMPICS OR  THE MAJOR LEAGUE BASEBALL OR  WHATEVER - THEY'RE ABLE TO KIND OF DECIDE WHAT IS ILLEGAL OR PERFORMANCE ENHACING.  OBVIOUSLY, THEY'RE KIND OF THE EXPERTS IN THAT AREA.  AND YOU KNOW THE LASER SURGERY - YOU CAN GET THAT SAME EFFECT WITH CONTACTS OR GLASSES, BUT YOU KNOW HOPEFULLY WE'D HAVE SOME BODIES THAT CAN KIND OF DISTINGUISH THAT FOR US.
 
SAMUELSON:  RIGHT. AND  THAT'S THE IMPORTANCE OF HAVING THESE SPORTS BODIES THAT ARE KEEN ON WHAT'S GOING ON IN THEIR SPORT.  WELL MAYBE WE SHOULD TURN IT UP THEN, JACK.  HOW DOES MINOR LEAGUE BASEBALL HANDLE DOPING AND HOW DOES THAT DIFFER FROM MAJOR LEAGUE BASEBALL AND WHERE DO YOU SEE SUCCESSES AND FAILURES IN THOSE RESPECTIVE AREAS?
 
ROEDER:  WELL AT THIS POINT, THEY'RE FAIRLY SIMILAR, BUT THE MINOR LEAGUE PROGRAM IS ACTUALLY BETTER THAN THE MAJOR LEAGUE PROGRAM AS WE SIT HERE TODAY, SIMPLY FROM THE STANDPOINT THAT THERE'S MANDATORY TESTING IN THE MINOR LEAGUES THREE TIMES PER YEAR.  ONCE IS BY THE COMMISSIONER'S OFFICE AND TWICE BY THE TEAM.  SO EVERYBODY GETS TESTED THREE TIMES PER YEAR.  THE DIFFERENCE WITH THE MAJOR LEAGUES, MY UNDERSTANDING IS THEY TEST, BUT IT'S RANDOM TESTING.  SO THAT'S A BIG DIFFERENCE.  NOW I MEAN THAT'S  ABOVE WHERE THEY USED TO BE, A  BETTER SCENARIO THAN THE MAJOR LEAGUES HAD, BUT ITS' STILL NOT CAOMPARABLE TO THE MINOR LEAGUES.  AND THEN THE  OTHER THING IS IN THE MINOR LEAGUES IS AND I DON'T KNOW  THE MAJOR LEAGUE - I THINK IT'S FAIRLY SIMILAR TO THE FLOW CHARTS SO TO SPEAK - BUT THE FIRST TIME IN THE MINOR LEAGUES THAT YOU'RE CAUGHT USING SOME OF THESE DRUGS THAT ARE PROHIBITED IS A FIFTY GAME SUSPENSION, THE SECOND TIME IT GOES TO A HUNDRED AND THE THIRD TIME, IT'S A BAN FOR LIFE.  SO THERE'S NOT A LOT OF LEEWAY IN THERE.  OBVIOUSLY, IF YOU'RE NOT FOLLOING THE RULES, YOU'RE NOT GOING TO BE AROUND VERY LONG.  I DON'T KNOW THE MAJOR LEAGUE SCENARIO QUITE AS WELL WITH THE EXCEPTION THAT YOU KNOW THEY HAVE CERTAINLY HAVE IMPROVED WHAT THEY WERE AT ONE POINT IN TIME.
 
SAMUELSON:  YEAH.  I THINK  IT'S ONLY BEEN SINCE  I THINK ABOUT 2003 THAT  THEY EVEN STARTED IMPLEMENTING THE RANDOM TESTING IF I'M CORRECT.
 
OGDEN:  BASEBALL WAS ONE OF THE LAST ONES TO KIND OF JOIN THE REST OF WORLD, I GUESS.  BUT A LOT OF THAT HAD TO DO WITH THE PLAYERS UNIONS AND THINGS LIKE THAT GETTING IN THE WAY.  AND NOT JUST WITH BASEBALL,  THAT'S IN EVERY SPORT, THAT'S WHERE YOU RUN INTO A LOT OF PROBLEMS.  YOU COME UP WITH - IS DENIAL A GUILTY PLEA, SO TO SPEAK?  AND IN SOME CASES, I THINK IT IS. I MEAN I DON'T THINK IT IS EVERY TIME OBVIOUSLY.  BUT SOMETIMES YOU CAN DENY TOO MUCH OR TOO STRONGLY.  AND SOME OF THE THINGS YOU SAY -   YOU KNOW MARK MCGWIRE A COUPLE OF YEARS AGO WAS A PERFECT EXAMPLE OF HE PROBABLY DID MORE DAMAGES TO HIMSELF THAN GOOD IN HIS TESTIMONY.  BUT YOU KNOW IT'S AN EVOLVING THING.  IT CHANGES ALL THE TIME.  THAT LIST OF BANNED SUBSTANCES CHANGES ALL THE TIME AND PROBABLY SHOULD, BECASUE, YOU KNOW AS RICK POINTED OUT, AGAIN, DRUGS ARE CHANGING ALL THE TIME AND THE WAY THEY MASK THEM IS CHANGING ALL THE TIME.  ONE OF THESE DAYS, WE'VE GOT TO GET A STEP AHEAD AND STAY A STEP AHEAD WITH THIS PROBLEM.
 
ROEDER:  AND WITH MCGWIRE, WHAT REALLY HURT HIM WAS AS MUCH WHAT HE DIDN'T SAY AS WHAT HE DID SAY.  HE BASICALLY REFUSED  TO SPEAK, AND IT SEEMED TO REALLY PUT A SHADOW OVER HIS CAREER.
 
SAMUELSON:  MMM HMM.  YEAH.  SO DO YOU CONJECT, THEN, THAT THE MAJOR LEAGUES SHOULD HAVE A MANDATORY TESTING PROGRAM SIMILAR TO...?
 
ROEDER:  ABSOLUTELY.  I THINK HOPEFULLY THAT'S SOMETHING THAT'S COMING DOWN THE ROAD.  AND AGAIN, I'M NOT AS FAMILIAR WITH IT.  AND I DON'T WANT TO SPEAK OUT OF TURN.  BUT I THINK IT SHOULD BE CLOSER TO WHAT THE MINOR LEAGUES ARE DOING CURRENTLY.
 
SAMUELSON:  RIGHT.  AND DO THE FANS BEAR ANY RESPONSIBILITY HERE?  I MEAN IT SEEMS LIKE THERE IS A KIND OF APPETITE FOR NEW RECORDS, CERTAINLY IN BASEBALL.  I THINK ABOUT MCGWUIRE AND SOSA'S GENERATING A LOT OF INTEREST IN BASEBALL WHEN IT HAD KIND OF REACHED THE TROUGH THERE FOR A WHILE AFTER THE STRIKE.  YOU KNOW AND I IMAGINE TOO THEN FOR MAJOR LEAGUE BASEBEALL, THERE MUST BE A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF PRESSURE FOR THEM NOT TO PRESS THIS ISSUE TOO MUCH - BECAUSE YOU KNOW IT'S SORT OF GOOD FOR A LOT OF HOMERUNS.
 
J.R.  IT IS A BUSINESS.  I MEAN YOU KNOW, SPORTS IS A BUSINESS AT THAT LEVEL.  THEY'VE GOT TO MAKE MONEY.  AND YEAH, THE FANS, I THINK, ARE PARTIALLY RESPONSIBLE BUT YOU KNOW THAT'S - I THINK THE FANS HAVE SHOWN THEY'RE GOING TO SHOW UP NO MATTER WHAT.  THEY'RE SHOWING UP THROUGH THIS.  OUT IN SAN FRANCISCO, THEY'RE SUPPORTING BARRY BONDS, YOU KNOW, AND THERE'S A CLOUD OVER HIM THAT'S PROBABLY DARKER THAN YOU'VE EVER SEEN IN THIS DOPING WORLD, I GUESS.  THE HOMERUN RACE OF SOSA AND MCGWIRE A FEW YEARS BACK - FANS SHOWED UP FOR THAT.  BUT AGAIN, IF IT'S ALSO CLEAN, I THINK THE FANS ARE  STILL GOING TO SHOW UP.  BUT IT'S A RISK THAT I THINK BASEBALL AND  OTHER SPORTS HAVE KIND OF BEEN UNWILLING TO TAKE.  AND THAT'S WHY THEY KIND OF HIDE BEHIND THEIR UNIONS AND WHATEVER MIGHT BE AND NOT BE SO STRICT ABOUT IT.
 
SAMUELSION:  RIGHT.  BICYCLING ON THE OTHER HAND THOUGH SEEMS TO HAVE REALLY STEPPED UP WHAT THEY HAVE BEEN DOING, IN PART, I THINK, FOR FEAR THAT THEY DON'T WANT TO BE SEEN AS LOSING THE INTEGRITY OF THEIR SPORT.  THEY DON'T WANT TO BE SEEN AS HAVING A KIND OF JOKE OF A SPORT, BUT HAVING A REAL SPORT, SO I MEAN I THINK THAT'S SOMETHING ELSE TO THINK ABOUT TOO.
 
OGDEN:  THEY MAY BE TOO FAR GONE, I DON'T KNOW.  THIS TOUR DE FRANCE - YOU DON'T HEAR THE BUZZ.  OF COURSE, THERE'S NO LANCE ARMSTRONG, THERE'S NO DEFENDING CHAMP.  BUT ALL YOU HEAR ABOUT IS THEY ALL TESTED CLEAN, THEY ALL TESTED NEGATIVE OR WHATEVER THAT MIGHT BE - THAT SEEMS TO BE THE BIGGEST STORY OF THE DAY.
 
ROEDER:  BASEBALL, BASKETBALL AND FOOTBALL IN GENERAL PROBABLY HAVE A BIG ADVANTAGE IN THAT AS J.R. SAID, IT DOESN'T SEEM TO MATTER.  I MEAN PEOPLE ARE GOING TO COME, PEOPLE ARE GOING TO WATCH.  CYCLING IS A LITTLE MORE FRAGILE.  IT'S NOT - YOU COULDN'T PUT THAT IN THE SAME CATEGORY IN TERMS OF INTEREST WITHIN THE COUNTRY FOR THAT PARTICULAR SPORT AND OTHERS.  BUT IT DOESN'T SEEM TO MATTER IN THE BIG THREE.
 
SAMUELSON:  RIGHT.  WELL LET'S GO BACK TO BASEBALL IN THIS AND THE FACT THAT SOSA AND BARRY BONDS AND MCGWIRE ARE ALL SUSPECTED OF STEROID USE - DOES THAT CHANGE THE STATUS OF THEIR STATISTICS - DO THEIR RECORDS NEED LITTLE ASTERISKS BESIDE THEM SAYING, YOU KNOW, "AGE OF STEROIDS" - IS THAT RELEVANT?  IS THIS SOMETHING WE NEED TO BE CONCERNED ABOUT?
 
ROEDER:  MY OWN OPINION IS THAT IT WOULD BE HARD TO PUT AN ASTERISK.  I THINK THEY MAY PAY THE PRICE, AND SOME OF THEM I THINK ALREADY ARE.  I DON'T KNOW - WHO KNOWS WHAT HISTORY WILL WRITE 20 YEARS FROM NOW?  BUT TO PUT AN ASTERISK THERE AT THIS POINT WOULD BE DIFFICULT JUST BECAUSE WE DON'T KNOW WHEN IT NECESSARILY STARTED, WHO ALL WAS ALL INVOLVED.  I MEAN HOW WOULD YOU SORT THROUGH ALL OF THAT?  THAT WOULD BE MY BIGGEST CONCERN.  AND YOU KNOW THEY WANTED TO PUT AN ASTERISK IN FRONT OF ROGER MARIS' NAME BECAUSE HE PLAYED MORE GAMES THAN BABE RUTH WHEN HE BROKE THE RECORD.  AND THE PITCHING MOUND IS A DIFFERENT HEIGHT THAN IT WAS.  NOW I KNOW WE'RE TALKING ABOUT A DIFFERENT THING HERE.  BUT I THINK IT WOULD BE VERY DIFFICULT - UNLESS THERE WAS FURTHER EVIDENCE  IN BONDS' CASE - TO PROBABLY DO THAT.  I MEAN, THAT'S MY OPINION.
 
SAMUELSON: RIGHT.  WHAT DO YOU GUYS THINK ABOUT THAT?
 
ANDERSON:  I THINK YOU'D ALMOST HAVE TO HAVE PRETTY BLACK AND WHITE OR AN ADMISSION TO ME TO HAVE ANYTHING LIKE AN ASTERISK.  I JUST DON'T THINK THAT'S EVER GOING TO - I DON'T THINK TESTING IS THERE AND I DON'T THINK THAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN.
 
OGDEN:  I THINK I MEAN YOU KNOW BEN JOHNSON HAD HIS WORLD RECORD REVOKED AND HAD IT CHANGED.  I THINK IF IT CAME OUT THERE WAS LIKE BLACK AND WHITE EVIDENCE AS RICK SAID THAT BARRY BONDS CHEATED AND I THINK MAYBE YOU DO NOT COUNT IT AS A RECORD.  BUT I THINK JACK IS RIGHT - WHERE DO YOU STOP AND WHERE DO YOU START?  I MEAN YOU KNOW WITH THE STOLEN BASE RECORDS, I MEAN WHO KNOWS.  YOU COULD LOOK AT ANY RECORD AND SAY WHAT WAS THIS PERSON TAKING - AND WAS HE TAKING ANYTHING.  YOU'D HAVE TO  BACK AND TRY TO PROVE A LOT OF THINGS YOU CAN'T PROVE RIGHT NOW.  TO ME, IT DOES TURN ME OFF AS A FAN TO WATCH SOME OF THAT STUFF.  AND I'M NOT AS INTERESTED AND I THINK THAT A STORY MOVED TODAY ON OUR WIRE SERVICES THAT TALKED ABOUT A SURVEY THAT FANS YOU KNOW ARE NOT REALLY INTERESTED IN BARRY BONDS' HITTING RECORD - THEY DON'T CARE.  WHICH IS TOO BAD, BECAUSE IT'S A RECORD PEOPLE SHOULD CARE ABOUT.  IT'S THE RECORD IN BASEBALL TO A LOT OF BASEBALL PURISTS.  AND THAT'S ANOTHER REASON WHY THERE'S SO MUCH CONTROVERSY ABOUT IT, BECAUSE FOR THE PURISTS, THEY WANT TO SEE IT CHANGE.  I THINK IT'S KIND OF FUNNY THE GUY WHO WAS SELLING THE ASTERISKS ONLINE AND TO HOLD ON FOR THE END PROTEST, AND IT DID MAKE FOR SOME GOOD FUN COPY AND SOME FUN TIMES, BUT LIKE JACK SAID, I DON'T THINK YOU CAN DO THAT WITH A RECORD BOOK WITH ANYTHING.
 
SAMUELSON:  AND I I'M A LITTLE BIT UNCLEAR ON THIS AND MAYBE ONE OF YOU CAN ELIMINATE ME, BUT I'M NOT SURE BARRY BONDS DID ANYTHING WRONG EVEN IF HE DID TAKE STEROIDS AT THE TIME.  I'M NOT SURE IF IT WAS A BANNED SUBSTANCE AT THE TIME.  I MEAN THIS IS THE KIND OF THING WHERE MANY PEOPLE THINK IT WAS WRONG BUT IT WASN'T ILLEGAL.  I MEAN I THINK IT'S CLEAR  THAT IF HE WAS CHEATING AND THAT CAN BE PROVED DEFINITIVELY, THAT'S A HUGE PROBLEM.  BUT IF IT - SOME PEOPLE FEEL THAT HE MAYBE WAS CHEATING KIND OPF IN A LEGAL WAY...
 
OGDEN:  WELL THE SUBSTANCE MCGWIRE WAS TAKING WAS NOT BANNED AT THE TIME, BUT I BELIEVE IT IS NOW.  I THINK STEROIDS WERE ALWAYS ILLEGAL BUT I DON'T THINK THEY WERE BANNED. 
 
SAMUELSON: AND THEY WEREN'T TESTING FOR THEM.
 
OGDEN: RIGHT.  SO YOU'RE RIGHT.
 
SAMUELSON:  SO SHOULD WE MAYBE BACK OFF BARRY BONDS A LITTLE BIT AND SAY...
 
ROEDER:  WELL THE THING THAT IS REALLY DISAPPOINTING OR SAD ABOUT IT AND THAT'S THIS IS A HUGE EVENT, I MEAN THERE'S NOTHING BIGGER IN BASEBALL.  AND HERE YOU'VE GOT THIS TALK THAT THE COMMISSIONER OF BASEBALL MIGHT NOT BE THERE, HANK AARON'S NOT GOING TO BE THERE.  AND HANK'S SAYING ALL THE RIGHT THINGS, BUT LET'S BE HONEST, HANK AARON SHOULD BE THERE.   THAT'S JUST A NATURAL.  AND THE COMMISISONER, WHICH I'M SURE HE WILL BE THERE.  I WOULD BE SHOCKED IF HE WOULDN'T.  BUT THE FACT IT'S EVEN IN DISPUTE REALLY IS DISAPPOINTING.
 
SAMUELSON:  YEAH, IT IS.  AND I'M THINK THAT IT HAS HAD AN EFFECT.  ONE THING IS THAT WE CAN TALK ABOUT STEROID USE AT THE HIGHER LEVEL OF SPORTS.  TO WHAT EXTENT IS STEROID USE GOING ON AT THE HIGH SCHOOL LEVEL, THE AMATEUR LEVEL OF SPORTS.  AND IS THERE A TRICKLE DOWN EFFECT AS WELL?  I THINK ONE OF THE FEARS PEOPLE HAVE IS THAT PEOPLE WILL SEE, "OH BARRY BONDS GOT AHEAD ON STEROIDS, OR YOU KNOW MARK MCGWIRE DID STEROIDS" MIGHT THINK,  "WELL WHY NOT ME TOO?" AS AN AMATEUR ATHLETE OR AS A HIGH SCHOOL ATHLETE.  HOW MUCH OF A CONCERN IS THAT WOULD YOU SAY?
 
ANDERSON:  FROM THE READING I DID, YEAH, IT'S DEFINITELY A CONCERN.  AND THE OTHER CONCERN THAT I HAD IS THE NON-ATHLETES THAT USE IT - WHICH IS NOT WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT - BUT A LOT OF THEM IN HIGH SCHOOL, THEY'RE CONOCERNED ABOUT THEIR APPEARANCE, SO TO GET SOME MUSCLE MASS AND GET RID OF THE BODY FAT.  SO THERE ARE A LOT OF NON-ATHLETES THAT ARE USING IT TOO.  BUT  AS FAR AS ATHLETES - YEAH, IT'S DEFINITELY THERE.
 
OGDEN:  THE IOWA HIGH SCHOOL ATHLETIC ASSOCIATION AS FAR AS I KNOW HAS NOT I DON'T THINK EVER CONSIDERED DRUG TESTING, BUT SEVERAL STATES HAVE.  AND I SHOULD SAY A HANDFUL.  I KNOW NEW JERSEY DOES TEST THEIR HIGH SCHOOL ATHLETES.  AND THEY FEEL IT'S BEEN A VERY GOOD PROGRAM FOR THEM.  DOES IT TRICKLE DOWN?  DEFINITELY.  I MEAN I THINK ANY JOE FOOTBALL PLAYER, JOE BASEBALL WHO SEES IT AND MIGHT GET A COLLEGE SCHOLARSHIP OUT OF IT AND HAS AN OPPORTUNITY - YEAH, YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE IT.  BUT WHEN THEY GET TO COOLEGE, COLLEGE DOES A REALLY GOOD JOB OF TESTING FOR IT.  THEY MIGHT NOT ADMIT - THEY MIGHT SAY THAT SO AND SO HAS BEEN SUSPENDED FOR THREE GAMES OR  YEAR OR WHATEVER IT MIGHT BE.  THEY MIGHT NOT TELL YOU WHY.  BUT THEY'RE PRETTY GOOD AT TESTING FOR ILLEGAL STEROIDS AND THINGS LIKE THAT.
 
RODER:  I THINK THE PRO-ACTIVE APPROACH - I KNOW WE USE THAT SOME IN THE MINOR LEAGUES.  THERE'S A DOWN SIDE HERE, WHICH I KNOW WE'VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT HERE TODAY.  TAKE AWAY EVERYTHING ELSE THAT IT CAN GAIN FOR YOU, HERE'S THE NEGATIVE ASPECT OF IT, AND IT'S NOT WORTH IT.  IN THE LONG RUN, IT JUST ISN'T WORTH IT.
 
SAMUELSON:  MM HMM.  WHAT ABOUT THE GOVERNMENT HAS GOTTEN INVOLVED TO SOME DEGREE WITH THIS ISSUE.  JOHN MCCAIN AMONG OTHERS HAS HELD HEARINGS ABOTU THIS.  SHOULD THE GOVERNMENT STEP IN?  IS THIS JSUT SOMETHING THAT SPORTS SHOULD JUST KIND OF BE LEFT ALONE TO TAKE CARE OF ON ITS OWN, TO TAKE CARE OF ON ITS OWN?  OR IS THIS A LARGER ISSUE? I KNOW I WAS READING THAT IN ITALY SOME ATHLETES WHO WERE FOUND TO BE GUILTY OF DOPING AND THE CHARGE WOULD BE FRAUD.  I MEAN THAT THEY WERE PLAYING UNDER FRAUDULENT CIRCUMSTANCES.  IS THIS AN ISSUE THAT THE GOVERNMENT NEEDS TO STEP IN ON? OR IS THIS JUST SOMETHING THAT JUST SPORTS SHOULD HANDLE?
 
OGDEN:  I DON'T KNOW.  I THINK THE GOVERNMENT SHOULD STEP IN ONLY IF THE SPORT ITSELF IS NOT TAKING CARE OF IT.  CYCLING IS ONE OF THOSE SPORTS THAT WAS NOT TAKING CARE OF IT, AND THEY WERE IN DANGER, I BELIEVE, OF LOSING THEIR OLYMPIC STATUS.  AND THE OLYMPICS STEPPED IN AND SAID DO THIS OR YOU ARE GOING TO BE BANNED.  SO IN THAT CASE, I THINK THERE IS SOME A LITTLE BIT, BUT SOMETIMES IT'S MORE POLITICS, IT'S MORE RHETORIC THAN IT IS ACTUAL SUBSTANCE I THINK.
 
ROEDER:  I WOULD AGREE.  I THINK IT NEEDS TO BE AN EXTREME CASE  FOR THEM TO GET INVOLVED WITH IT.  I THINK A LOT OF TIMES I THINK IT'S SHOW AND RHETORIC, AND I DON'T KNOW HOW MUCH THEY'RE ACCOMPLISDHING.  BUT I DO AGREE THAT THERE'S PROBABLY INSTANCES OR CASES WHERE I THINK IT IS WARRANTED.
 
SAMUELSON:  RIGHT.  WELL WE ONLY HAVE ABOUT A MINUTE LEFT.  BUT THE LAST QUESTION I WANTED TO ASK - AND THIS IS SOMETHING THAT I THINK YOU ALREADY TOUCHED ON  - AND THAT IS TO WHAT EXTENT DOES THIS RESONATE OUTSIDE OF SPORTS AND IS THERE A CULTURE OF DOPING THAT'S GOING ON, OR IS THIS SOMETHING THAT WE NEED TO BE CONCERNED ABOUT MORE BROADLY.  AND CLEARLY, IT'S AN ISSUE IN SPORTS AND WE NEED TO THINK ABOUT IT.  BUT ARE THERE OTHER THINGS THAT SPORTS TOUCHES ON THAT SPORTS MIGHT INFLUENCE?
 
ANDERSON:  I DON'T KNOW, BUT I GUESS JUST AS A SPORTS FAN WHEN I SEE RECORDS OR WHEN I SEE COMPETITION, I LIKE TO SEE JUST NATURAL COMPETITION.  EITHER SOMEBODY HAS WORKED REALLY HARD OR IS BORN GIFTED OR WHATEVER.  BUT WHEN SOMEBODY HAS USED PRODUCTS OR DRUGS AND THAT KIND OF THING, IT'S REALLY KIND OF DISHEARTENING, AND I GUESS WHEN THERE'S A SPORTING EVENT, I'M KIND OF TURNED OFF.  SO I MEAN THERE'S LOTS OF OTHER SPORTS TO WATCH OR OTHER THINGS TO DO I GUESS WHEN IT COMES TO THAT.
 
OGDEN:  RIGHT.  I THINK YOU KNOW WE DID GO BACK TO WHAT JACK SAID.  I THINK THAT YOU KNOW IF YOU SHOW THEM WHAT'S THE BAD SIDE -  PROFESSIONAL WRESTLERS - THERE'S SOME EVIDENCE THAT COULD HAVE BEEN SOME KIND OF RAGE OF SOME SORT OR SOMETHING.  HOPEFULLY THAT WILL TURN PEOPLE OFF.
 
SAMUELSON:  WELL THAT IS A FEAR.  WELL, I HAVE TO THANK THE PANEL FOR A GREAT DISCDUSSION, AND WE HOPE IT'S ONE YOU'LL CONTINUE.  AND WE'LL SEE YOU NEXT TIME ON ETHICAL PERSPECTIVES ON THE NEWS.